Microdosing Podcast w/ Jasper Degenaars – The Microdoser’s Guide to Mycology

This conversation with Jasper is the most juicy episode on mycology we’ve ever done. It doesn’t get shroomier than this. And for good reasons, because without fungi, there would be no life on land! We go over many misconceptions around mushrooms, particularly psilocybin-producing mushrooms, and microdosing – fasten your seatbelts!聽

About Jasper Degenaars

Jasper Degenaars is a Mycologist, Educator, and the Hyphae Headmaster of Fungi Academy. With 12+ years of mushroom growing experience and more than 2,000 students taught since 2019, Jasper has set out on a mission to make learning mushroom cultivation Easy, Fun, and Exciting! With the skillset of a self-taught teacher, he aims to make the art and science of mushroom cultivation accessible to everyone aspiring to be a citizen mycologist. He co-created the Sacred Mushroom Cultivation Course, the first online course teaching mycophiles worldwide how to successfully grow all kinds of mushrooms, from Spore to Shroom. His new course, the Fungal Ecology Course, aims to tell the untold story of Fungi and their role in our home, the Earth. By sharing his passion for the Queendom, he hopes to cultivate the love he feels for the Fungi within everyone.

Microdosing Table Talk episode 31

03:16 How Jasper’s world travels lead him deep into the fungal kingdom (through Mexico, into Guatemala)

12:01 The Shroom Boom 14:10 What are magic mushrooms?

16:39 Are mycelium and mushrooms sentient, or intelligent?

22:00 Mushroom growing industry compared to the cannabis growing

23:58 Mythbusting: different strains have different effects

28:55 Psilocybin mushrooms: why are we so fixated on potency?

33:15 Psilocybe cubensis versus other psilocybe mushrooms species

42:37 Scientific findings on microdosing versus anecdotal findings

42:30 The placebo conversation

52:35 Microdosing versus Macrodosing

56:07 Thoughts on combining mushrooms with cacao and the Stamets stack

59:00 Experiences with Niacin

60:00 Functional mushrooms: turkey tail, reishi, lion’s mane

60:06 Why we must replace the term Plant Medicines

60:08 How you can be a mycologist (in your own unique way!)聽

Disclaimer: Microdosing Institute is an information platform and a community with the sole purpose of providing education on microdosing. We do not encourage the illegal use of psychedelics. Even though we discuss the many benefits of microdosing, we do not claim that microdosing is proven effective as a medicine, medicinal aid or supplement, or that it could be seen as a replacement for conventional therapies or medicines.

Watch the full Microdosing Table Talk on聽Youtube or listen via your preferred podcasting platform.

Learn more about (growing) sacred mushrooms

  • Take 30% off all courses on Fungi Academy via this link: fungiacademy.com
  • Learn how to cultivate sacred mushrooms on FA’s retreats in Guatemala: fungiacademy.com
  • Instagram/TikTok/Youtube: @fungiacademy

Connect with Jasper

  • Instagram:聽 @jasperdegenaars

Microdose with us

Transcript

Well, welcome.聽Jasper.聽

Speaker 2

00:01
What’s up?聽

Speaker 1

00:02
Very happy to be that you’re here and yeah, we already met, of course in January when I did your cultivation mushroom course in Guatemala where you were based, it was really nice.聽And I always say to other people who I want to motivate to go there, is that it wasn’t a cultivation mushroom course, it was a cultivation life course because the connection between all the participants and the community feeling and the vibes was so beautiful for me and we really enjoyed the staying there.聽

Speaker 2

00:35
Thanks man.聽

Speaker 1

00:36
Yeah.聽To dive into mushrooms.聽Yeah.聽What was your first memory of mushroom?聽When did that passion start for you?聽

Speaker 2

00:44
Yeah, that’s a good question.聽First of all, it’s great to have you.聽It’s finally great.聽That was it that Mart convinced you a little bit of both, right?聽Because I told you this way back when we met like two years ago, I think come but you’re one of the few people that actually came, which is always nice.聽

Speaker 1

01:02
Yeah.聽

Speaker 2

01:02
You’re next.聽We have the sacred spaceholder program with Julian, so maybe that’s full now but you can maybe come to Julian and Nikki there.聽So we’re doing that every year now.聽

Speaker 3

01:13
Okay, we’re going to talk about that later.聽

Speaker 2

01:15
But mushrooms, right?聽So yeah, it’s funny because I was just with my parents and apparently as a kid this is very typical for lots of people that are into mushrooms.聽I did not like eating the classic champagne agaricus by spores, butter, mushrooms maybe because my mom didn’t know how to cook them that’s often.聽Maybe the case with people that don’t like mushrooms just because we don’t like for a lot of people, they just prepare them like a vegetable.聽But mushrooms are not plants, right?聽So you have to prepare them in a very different way.聽But I have this memory and I asked my mom if she has this memory so I don’t know if this is a real memory or a fake one, but like seeing an amanita mascaria, like the classic the fly agaric, right?聽

Speaker 2

01:56
The red with white dots mushroom, the emoji archetypical mushroom.聽And I was like whoa, enthralled by it.聽I was like, I really want to interact with this mushroom.聽And my mom being like, no, you’re going to die.聽That’s like what I remember.聽But she doesn’t have the same memory so I don’t know.聽But that’s one of the first memories I have of mushrooms, like being like whoa.聽And then I really didn’t really think about them for most of my life until I was like, 18 and I had my first magic truffle experience.聽And I actually had, at first, something which you could consider like a mini dose, which back in the day on Arrow, it was called a museum dose, which is, like, not necessarily a micro dose, but also definitely not a whole dose.聽

Speaker 2

02:42
And I was like, whoa, I actually felt really good.聽And then I had a full container a couple of weeks later and that just blew my life away and I was crying out of happiness and just had the quintessential psychedelic experience for people that have listened to me talk online before.聽I told this story many times that I thought like, oh, maybe I’ll just watch The Lion King while it starts to work and then the moment that Simba was in the ravine with all the wildebeests that’s when it really started to hit and I was like in the movie and then I just watched the whole thing.聽I was like, I’m simba spending too much time with Timon and Puma in the jungle.聽That kind of like that changed something really in me.聽And I was really depressed as a teenager.聽

Speaker 2

03:26
And then from then on I was really interested in the psychedelic state of mind and I was eating a lot of psychedelics.聽And then I found out that inherently more happy because I was able to love myself through these psychedelic experiences.聽And then I was working just in a restaurant or something and for what is it like 鈧4 an hour?聽And then buying one of these containers was already like 鈧12 back in the day.聽And then I had an older friend who had like a little grow kit and I figured that was just a more economic option so I started to grow them first under my bed at my parents place and I was just like, oh this is fun, I want to know more about this.聽

Speaker 2

04:10
And that’s kind of where it started and became kind of a very small time psychedelic advocate and everybody that wanted to listen to it was getting his ear talked off or their ear talked off.聽But it was mainly psychedelics in the beginning and it’s only when I started one’s on two CB, which is another, I think an under talked about psychedelic.聽It’s like Sasha Shogen called it the teacher.聽It’s a really powerful molecule which I’m very interested to maybe talk about two CB microdosing.聽If anybody is doing that’d be super cool.聽Anyhow but I had this download to go travel the world and then I got to Thailand and I was like just roaming around the jungle in Thailand and I found some elephant dung and then I found philosophy gabantas growing from the elephant dung.聽I was like, I know this mushroom.聽

Speaker 2

05:00
And then I started getting into foraging and I found on the way in Australia I found Mycelium Running by Paul Stemmit and some other Mycological books.聽And I was gathering knowledge and information about psychedelics.聽I was gathering information about Mycology and that’s kind of where it started to unfold until I eventually ended up in Fungi Academy and started teaching people about the thing I loved most.聽

Speaker 1

05:21
Yeah, because first you were a cultivator and then because of all the knowledge and people listened to you became an educator also and how did you come to become an educator in Guatemala?聽How did you get there?聽

Speaker 2

05:37
So I was traveling, I was actually trying to get from Seattle all the way to the Amazon without flying because I had already been traveling for like four or five years and just doing the classic backpacking routes, just a regular way of traveling got very boring.聽So I gave myself challenges.聽Like, I cycled from the Netherlands to Portugal, and then I sailed around the Baja peninsula and lots of different challenges.聽And this was the big challenge, to get from Seattle to the Amazon without flying.聽And when I was in Oaxaca, Mexico, in San Jose de Pacifico, it’s kind of like a mecca for mushroom lovers right now.聽I found stickers of the Fungi academy because it was already like a project that was happening in Guatemala.聽

Speaker 2

06:24
And I had met this girl in Boom in 2018, and she told me to go to Lake Atitlan.聽And I was like, okay, I should go to Lake Atitlan, it’s on the way.聽And then Fungi academy was on Lake Atitlan, and then I just ended up there and I had grown mushrooms, but I’d never done the lab work, so I’d never done like, petri dish stuff.聽And some of the real, the fundamentals of mushroom cultivation, those were new to me.聽So I was really excited to be in Guatemala and learning about that with a pretty decent lab.聽So I had this whole image of what it was going to be like.聽And then I got there and it was just after the high season and literally all of the glassware in the lab was dirty.聽

Speaker 2

07:05
The lab was flooded, there was mold in the lab.聽There was no you want when you’re growing mushrooms.聽

Speaker 3

07:11
Yeah, exactly.聽

Speaker 2

07:12
So there was a lot of challenges and at first like, oh, where did I end up?聽And lots of things.聽There’s a whole story of my bank cards being eaten by a pig because they were next to a mushroom chocolate I had in Mexico.聽And therefore I didn’t have my bank cards.聽And I had the PayPal people in Mexico.聽When I got to Guatemala, my PayPal got locked out.聽And when I first got to Fungi academy, it was very challenging and I was like, okay, I’m going to be gone, I’m going to be out because this is not it right now.聽But I didn’t have any money because my PayPal was locked out and I didn’t have my bank card, so I couldn’t go anywhere.聽So I was kind of like forced to stay at Fungi Academy.聽

Speaker 2

07:52
And then I eventually met Oliver, the founder, and at first we also had struggles, but then eventually we found common ground and yeah, life just kind of unfolded itself after that.聽So before you know it’s like now it’s almost five years ago, four and a half years ago.聽And yeah, I never figured out that I’d be in the position that I am right now.聽But it started all with him saying you should do a little class and then the class was like 6 hours long.聽I was like oh, maybe I do have something to share.聽And then started getting into teaching styles and found that very interesting and fun.聽

Speaker 2

08:32
And that’s always the thing that I apparently used to tell when people asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up was I wanted to be a world traveler and a teacher and I became both, which is great.聽So that’s kind of the origin story nutshell situation of where it all started and how I started teaching.聽And then through teaching you realize how much is missing, how many gaps of knowledge I had.聽And then I was like oh man, I should learn more.聽This person asked me the question I should notice I’m the teacher.聽And then this is how we learn.聽

Speaker 3

09:05
This is how most of us learn, right.聽Not from a school or just reading books, but really by figuring out what we need to know ourselves.聽Yeah, it’s a beautiful story.聽What is the least understood thing about mushrooms or about mycology in general?聽

Speaker 2

09:26
Everything.聽I think right now, of course we’re living not only in the golden age of psychedelics and psychedelic renaissance, what some people like to call it, but also the shroom boom there seem to go hand in hand.聽Interest in psychology is just going through the roof right now, which is amazing.聽And I think it is definitely connected to psychedelics.聽But yeah, until the 1970s I think most sciences and most science departments still have fungi which is like a whole different queendom in the same corner as plants.聽Which is ridiculous because first of all, you have two types of organisms in the world.聽You have the heterotrophs and you have the autotrophs.聽Autotrophs are the things that can photosynthesize, right?聽Plants can do that.聽We cannot do this.聽Anybody that says that they’re breathtarian, I think they’re just secretly eating food when nobody’s watching.聽

Speaker 2

10:20
Sorry, don’t believe it.聽We just need nutrients, we need to eat other things on a fundamental level.聽And fungi are the same.聽But that’s not the only thing we have in common with fungi.聽They also inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, quite a bit of carbon dioxide actually.聽And they need to eat these dead things.聽And in the beginning that was mainly rocks.聽They can even eat rock, which is really interesting.聽They use this compound called voxalic acid to break down the phosphorus and other of these minerals but now it is decaying trees, right?聽So they’re at the end and the beginning of the life cycle.聽And without fungi there’s no life on this planet.聽There wouldn’t be soil, there wouldn’t be plants growing on the earth, maybe there would be live in water.聽

Speaker 2

11:11
But there would not be life on land without fungi because they are so quintessential.聽They’re so essential to the whole cycle here, and then we’re not even getting into that.聽There’s, like, a 50 million year gap between fossil evidence of mycorrhizal fungi, which are the fungi that connect to the roots of plants right before plants had evolved their own roots.聽So it’s actually quite accepted within mycological academia that fungi mycelium was the roots of plants before plants had their own roots.聽Wow.聽

Speaker 1

11:45
Okay.聽

Speaker 2

11:46
And we just skimp over them.聽Right.聽When people think of a mushroom, they think either aminita mascaria, the button mushroom, and now psilocybicobensis.聽And this is something I knew we wanted to get into a little bit, but there’s over 200 psilocybin biosystem producing mushrooms, which in common terms right now are being called psilocybin mushrooms, which I’m also not a favor in favor of.聽

Speaker 1

12:11
It’s like, downgrade them.聽

Speaker 2

12:13
Yeah.聽

Speaker 3

12:13
As if it’s only psilocybin, which is.聽

Speaker 2

12:15
Actually not even bioactive.聽

Speaker 3

12:17
No, exactly.聽It needs to convert into silosin there you go.聽In order to be psychoactive.聽And then there’s all these other substances that we also these alkaloids that we, I think, need to study more.聽

Speaker 2

12:29
We don’t even know right now.聽We have a very surface level understanding of what is in them.聽Bayacistin super interesting.聽Right.聽On a whole nother level.聽But there’s also nor psilocybin.聽There’s norbayosystin.聽And then these mushrooms are still not legal to be really studied.聽So there’s so much more that we can discover.聽I always like to say we’re working with organisms, we’re not working with molecules.聽Right.聽And I think this whole debate, like, I just sound more professional when I say psilocybin mushrooms, but in reality, it’s just false.聽There’s this false pretense of knowing what you’re talking about.聽Well, in reality, it’s not correct, in my opinion.聽

Speaker 1

13:09
Yeah, but as you mentioned, that psychedelic mushrooms gain the interest that people gain interest in the mushrooms in general due to psychedelics.聽Do you think that these magic mushrooms or psychedelic mushrooms have their own intelligence or their own agenda?聽

Speaker 2

13:31
Okay, that’s a good question.聽Right.聽Thank you for also phrasing this, I think, magic mushroom.聽There’s nothing wrong.聽First of all, mushrooms are magic.聽But yes, psychedelic mushrooms, I think, is also a way more all encompassing term because there’s so many more psychedelic mushrooms than just the ones that contain how do you like to call them?聽So with funky cami, we decided to call them sacred mushrooms.聽

Speaker 1

13:54
Sacred mushrooms?聽

Speaker 2

13:55
Yeah.聽And again, we can argue that all mushrooms are sacred, but I think it acknowledges the reverence we have for these organisms.聽And I think it is so deep into the common narrative that we get messages or downloads from a sort of alien organism when we journey, especially deep journeys with these mushrooms that I think you could make an argument that they have their own intelligence.聽I personally like to believe that nature is conscious because we have a very top down information system.聽Right.聽We have this very complex brain, and we think the brain is controlling the rest of the body, but in reality, that’s also not the case.聽But if you look at, like, Mycelium underground, for example, you have this very complex nervous system, very well spread out, that can be kilometers wide, right?聽

Speaker 2

14:49
But on a fundamental level, mycelium also communicates within its network with electro impulses, just like our nervous system does.聽So it’s just like, more spread out, it’s less concentrated.聽But does it make it less intelligence, or is it therefore not sentient?聽I don’t know.聽What I think is really interesting, which I often talk about, is that this one study, in 1997, I believe, by Gustone Guzman, very famous Mexican mycologist ethnomycologist, worked like, he put out so many papers of indigenous mushroom use from, like, psychedelic mushrooms to non psychedelic mushrooms.聽Very amazing.聽Mycologist, he put out a paper with somebody else that he estimates that the genus of Psilocybie, which is the that’s why it’s called Psilocybin.聽And Psilocybin is after the genus Psilocybie, which means bare headed or naked head, I think it’s Greek, evolved between ten and 20 million years ago in Africa.聽

Speaker 2

15:55
If you take that medium right, we have 15 million years, and we estimate that we started diverging, we as humans, from our last common ancestors with, like, chimpanzees, bananas and gorillas about 13 million years ago.聽So unlike a global time frame, that’s nothing, right?聽So we have these mushrooms that are thought to potentially have been evolved in Africa around the same time, just a little bit before we started separating ourselves from our last common ancestor.聽So that, to me, could be, if you look at it from the intelligence argument of, are these fungi intelligent?聽Well, maybe the organism or close relative of the organism decided to evolve this organism that produces these alkaloids that have this effect on our brains and our bodies to maybe get us to the net next level.聽It’s interesting, right?聽

Speaker 2

16:52
But also, if you look at how fungi function in ecosystems and how fast they are able to produce new alkaloids, like, right now, we have over 200 fungi that can break down plastics.聽There’s an intelligence there.聽And I think a good example of this Fuserium polysafalon, which is the yellow slime mold that you saw in Fantastic Fungi.聽And Paul Stemmitz also talks a lot about this, is they gave this slime mold, which is not technically a fungus, but closely related, a maze, and it was able to solve the maze, which has actually mapped the Tokyo railway system better than humans could, just because it was more efficient with its energy, its spreading of energy.聽You cannot say that’s not intelligent.聽And if it’s intelligent, who are we to say that they cannot be sentient?聽

Speaker 3

17:40
Yeah, exactly.聽And especially because we became later and we categorize and things, and our type of intelligence is also limited, and especially our way of how to say it, like how we do science is limited up until the point where we got yeah.聽

Speaker 1

18:01
It’s also a little bit arrogant from humankind that we are the most intelligent.聽A little bit.聽

Speaker 2

18:08
I don’t know, man.聽I think Douglas Adams had it right with saying that dolphins are way more intelligent.聽They’re like smart.聽They’re just like puffing on puffer fish and they’re just like doing flips and stuff and eating fish.聽And we’re here worrying about our taxes and stuff like this.聽I don’t know who’s smarter here.聽

Speaker 1

18:25
Yeah, for sure.聽

Speaker 3

18:27
Yeah.聽So it’s part of a bigger intelligence here on Earth that encompasses probably many different species of mushrooms, but also the natural world, like the whole ecosystem that we’re seeing.聽Yeah.聽And who knows?聽It could be that we are playing only a very tiny role in this.聽It could also be that we are not even included in their agenda.聽Right.聽We’d like to think we are, and maybe it does serve us, but is that part of the plan?聽We don’t know.聽

Speaker 2

18:58
Well, fungi have been around for we have some evidence of this rock lava deposit that’s like carbon data to 2.4 billion years old.聽We’ve been around as Homo sapiens maybe 200,000 years now.聽Our last common assessor is homo is like six, like 30 million years.聽Like, the Homo erectus is like 6 million years.聽Like nothing.聽That’s nothing.聽We’re babies in this whole field compared to fungi.聽

Speaker 1

19:26
Yeah.聽Beautiful.聽

Speaker 3

19:29
Yeah.聽I would love to know a little bit more about your experience also with different strains than the silosybic cubensis.聽

Speaker 2

19:41
So we’re talking about different species.聽

Speaker 3

19:43
Oh, different species.聽

Speaker 2

19:44
That’s a very important differentiation.聽

Speaker 1

19:47
One strain is the.聽

Speaker 2

19:51
Thanks for asking that question.聽Let me clarify it for maybe listeners that are only familiar with the common names.聽Right?聽So you’re a golden teacher.聽Even his name albino penis envy.聽Then you have all these crazy names that are obviously made up by some bros that are just smoking fat blunts somewhere in the United States.聽And he’s like, yeah, I’m going to call this Jedi Mindfrog bro.聽That’s a real name for a real strain.聽And in reality, there’s a lot of people that come so you’re very familiar with this.聽Maybe the listeners, not so much.聽There’s a really big move happening right now from people that made a bunch of money in the cannabis industry and are moving into this mushroom industry and in cannabis.聽Okay.聽

Speaker 2

20:36
You can argue that different strains have different flavor profiles and maybe a different experience because they’re cloning them right.聽With mushrooms.聽I don’t think it works in the same way.聽I know there’s a lot of people out there that are saying, oh, yeah, I feel that these are different.聽And yeah, I think you can have that argument that you can have a different experience.聽But I think most of it is the priming.聽So if I tell Yuyo Kabin, I’m going to give you some of these golden teachers, but they’re some of the strongest ones I’ve ever had.聽You got to be like gentle with these.聽You, in your mind have it primed that you’re going to have a strong experience, even though, according to most people, the golden teacher is supposed to be one of the weaker ones.聽

Speaker 2

21:19
So I think the priming is way more important also how fungi work and how fungi produce mushrooms.聽It’s so that it’s a network, so they’re not necessarily individuals.聽And therefore you can have a crazy difference in expression of alkaloids per mushroom in one growing container.聽So you’re working with the same genetics, you’re working with the same growing conditions, you’re working with the same substrate, and then within that container, everything is the same.聽You can have one mushroom that can have literally double the amount of psilocybin, psilocycin biocystin and all these alkaloids.聽Then the mushroom in the same box on the other side, that’s the same genetics.聽Now look, I’ve been growing mushrooms for twelve years.聽Have you ever grown mushrooms before?聽

Speaker 3

22:10
Yeah.聽

Speaker 2

22:10
Okay, great.聽Maybe normally I ask this question, like, to a person that’s never grown mushrooms before in an audience or something.聽

Speaker 3

22:17
We can pretend I haven’t.聽

Speaker 2

22:18
Yeah, let’s pretend.聽Yeah, great, you have grown mushrooms.聽You kind of know what you’re doing, but maybe you don’t have twelve years of experience.聽I’m going to give you one of my cultivars, which is a strain that I’ve personally worked on with my twelve years of experience, going to give it to you, and next year we’re going to come back to that culture and see if it’s the same.聽In reality, maybe you have a very different life.聽You might not transfer it correctly.聽You might give it the wrong substrate.聽You might forget to leave it in the fridge for too long.聽These, all these small mistakes that can damage the health of the culture in a way.聽And this is happening all the time.聽It strains, right?聽So they might look the same.聽

Speaker 2

22:58
But if Johnny in his basement somewhere in Kansas that has seen two YouTube videos, has a golden teacher strain, that doesn’t mean that’s the same mushroom.聽And there are also lots of bensis.聽So I’ve asked this question to many cultivators that produce lots of mushrooms.聽If I give me three mushrooms that you’re most familiar with, and I blend them and dry them and I label them, and I’m giving to you blind, tell me, can you tell me which one is which?聽I have had no one say, oh yeah, I can do that.聽No one, no one, confidently.聽Because it just matters more what you ate the day before.聽Sleep.聽Sleep?聽Yeah, like how you’re feeling, where you’re at, if you’ve been in the forest anytime lately.聽That’s way more important.聽

Speaker 2

23:44
And I think people just want to have these stories that they’re familiar with, like the cannabis strain debate within the mushroom space, which I just don’t think there’s anything in correlation with that.聽But there’s differences because this is where the cultivar and this is an important differentiation to make.聽A cultivar is a strain that is produced by one person.聽So if you know somebody that grows really good mushrooms and he or she is taking care of this strain really well, you can kind of get a consistent result.聽Right.聽

Speaker 3

24:18
And that also means that person grows the mushrooms, then the spores come out and from those spores they grow new mushrooms.聽Does that mean condition?聽And they use it?聽Yeah, but the same conditions and they keep going.聽Would that say something about the quality or the potency of that strain or is that not what you mean?聽

Speaker 2

24:37
Yeah, so most strains are passed down, like a lot of these strains, for example, a lot of the albino strains, they don’t produce valid spores.聽So people work with clones.聽So what we call like you get a liquid culture or you make a clone by cutting out a piece of the mushroom and there’s all these different ways to keep it alive.聽But yeah, you can start with a sport print, but that’s often starting from scratch.聽So a lot of people, they just give a clone like a cutting basically of a mushroom and then they start working with it on their own terms.聽I think there’s a hyper focus on this, but as many cultivators know, it’s very easy to produce a lot of slospic mensis.聽And that’s what we’re seeing in bubbles.聽

Speaker 2

25:20
Now, bubbles have already happened during COVID when everybody in beginning of COVID on the west coast, the United States and Canada was looking for mushrooms, then a bunch of these weed people started moving to mushrooms.聽But within six months, if we all want, we can grow enough mushrooms for the whole world.聽It’s that easy.聽It’s just that easy.聽If you know what you’re doing and you have the facilities and the resources, you can just produce so much.聽

Speaker 3

25:43
And then if you wanted to produce mushrooms that are really potent.聽So my understanding is, from this whole story, just to recap, is that what we can see mainly amongst this specie of silosybacabensis and then all the golden teacher and the penis envy and all the different names that people have been given to them.聽But the only thing that really matters is they can have a different potency and that can be within the same container, within the same growing container.聽

Speaker 1

26:09
You can not depending on the strain itself, but on the conditions.聽

Speaker 3

26:13
Yeah.聽And is there any other way to control?聽

Speaker 2

26:16
So okay, there’s a couple of things that I know from the people that do rigorous testing, shout out Hyphae labs, they’re doing a lot of testing, is that we find that the albino species, like the albino varieties or strains, seem to produce in general, higher concentrations of these alkaloids.聽What’s speculated is that they don’t have to use energy to produce melatonin because fungi also get their color from melatonin, just like our skin.聽

Speaker 1

26:44
Okay.聽

Speaker 2

26:44
And therefore they might have higher concentrations of psilocybin.聽

Speaker 1

26:47
Because they’re white.聽

Speaker 2

26:48
Because they’re albino.聽Yeah, they’re white.聽So that could be.聽But do we always want to have it the strongest?聽That’s also a question that we need to ask ourselves.聽Why do we always I personally, commercially, like more interesting, a nice glass of beer that’s like three or 4%.聽I don’t want to have 50% vodka or something like this.聽Why do we have the same need to make it as strong as possible all the time?聽I think also we see this in the weed industry.聽I don’t like 30% DHC strains at all.聽Give me a mellow one.聽

Speaker 1

27:28
And the entourage effect.聽So let’s say all the strains that have different potencies, but do they have the philosophy, gobensis, do they all have the same alkaloids?聽Or is there also difference in one strain, has more Bcystein, for instance?聽

Speaker 2

27:49
Yeah, and that is not something I’ve really seen so much just yet.聽And again, we just need more testing.聽So I’m very happy that people are finally testing if this debate is proving to be valuable.聽I think it also has to do with storing and drying because a lot of people know psilocybin is so popular because it’s way more stable than silicon.聽So if you air dry in a dehydrator, for example, your mushrooms, you’ll probably already see a really significant decrease in psilocybin in the mushroom.聽And then how you store it is also very important.聽So that part is also really part of the equation.聽And how fresh are your mushrooms?聽You might have a mushroom that’s super potent, but if it’s been sitting around your supplier’s closet for a year on vacuum sealed, it’s going to lose most of that.聽

Speaker 2

28:41
I think it’s just like I believe that this is a sacrament, and I think it’s way more potent if you have a personal relationship with your sacraments.聽That’s why we teach people to cultivate, because that’s where you build your own personal relationship.聽You see them grow, you help them grow, and they in turn help you grow.聽That’s like a mutually beneficial relationship that I think everybody should experience instead of just going to a store and buying them.聽And then you have this weird, commercial, capitalistic, weird experience, which is pushed even harder in the United States right now with gummies and all these things that disconnect us from this true organism, right, that want to take away all the bad no, you only get the fun parts here.聽I have some concentrated sugar with it.聽

Speaker 2

29:28
I just think it’s so weird, and for me, that’s the way to do it is grow your own mushrooms, have that personal relationship.聽You can grow enough for you and your friends without much effort.聽

Speaker 1

29:40
That’s just not depending on dealers or people who are cultivating.聽You don’t know how they do it.聽

Speaker 2

29:44
And how old these mushrooms are and what.聽The intention.聽Right.聽I know a lot of people that produce a lot and some do it with good intention of really wanting to share the medicine.聽But also they’re making a lot of money with that and that must be part of their intention, right.聽So you have this kind of almost agreed attached in your mushroom experience.聽

Speaker 1

30:05
It’s a good point that you emphasize building a relationship because in our coaching programs, we also emphasize that you build a relationship with the substance or the earth medicine you take instead of just seeing it as a product and just take it and go by your day and acknowledge that it has a spirit and has an intelligence.聽

Speaker 2

30:27
And then if you can actually feed that intelligence and spirit something like a food source that it likes, I think that’s phenomenal to have that relationship with something that has such a deep impact on most of us that we work with that.聽But before we get into what I do think is interesting is that the talk about different species of Philosophy or Paniolas, this is actually, like I said, more than 200 of these mushrooms and not all belong to the genus Philosophy.聽There’s also Pluteus, Paniolas, Glitosopy, many different genera that produce these alkaloids.聽Philosophy is just the easiest to grow.聽Philosophy Comments is by far the easiest to grow.聽And I talked to Dennis McKenna about this and it was actually a pure, not a fun thing.聽They only found one mushroom in the Amazon and that’s the one that they tried to grow.聽

Speaker 2

31:16
And that by chance was the one that is by far the easiest to grow.聽If they tried with a Philosophy Simulancia, the Liberty Cap or the Pintracopian Dutch, they would have had such a hard time, probably only filled they probably would given it up.聽Probably never written this book maybe.聽So they found the right mushroom in the right time.聽It’s like again with the whole coincidence.聽Or the mushroom was like okay, let’s.聽

Speaker 3

31:42
Have these humans who seem to be quite keen on who have there’s potential there.聽I know also that the Habayan mushrooms, very potent but very difficult to grow.聽

Speaker 2

31:53
That’s paniology.聽Yeah, that’s another cyan essence.聽You can grow them, they just like they’re a little bit more picky like Philosophy cyan essence is also a little bit more picky, but you can also grow them like azurezins.聽I know people are growing, there’s tons of mushrooms like Philosophy mushrooms as you can grow, but they’re not never going to be as easy as Cubansis.聽That’s it.聽And they create these massive fruiting bodies.聽They’re also big, they’re just like yeah.聽

Speaker 3

32:22
I think they have this.聽And this is also maybe why they’re called magic mushrooms.聽The magic is also in watching them grow so quickly, so big with so much ease and then it’s like oh my God.聽And now we can also eat them.聽

Speaker 2

32:33
And have a transformational experience.聽

Speaker 3

32:36
And with others it requires more patience, more dedication, maybe more trial and error.聽But would you sort of advocate for people growing as many different possible varieties, or really, of course it’s something that you’re passionate about.聽But would you?聽I think it would be good for humanity if we all start to really diversify or widen our knowledge.聽

Speaker 2

33:03
Okay, so as a grower, it’s definitely fun to challenge yourself and grow these different species, but also different, even different.聽Growing different sprains is fun.聽It’s like, oh, you grow this one and then you have another one that looks completely different and has a little bit different needs.聽I think growing food plants, fungi is inherently good for humanity.聽I think when we talk about and this is a term that gets thrown around a lot, which I’m a little makes me want to push my arm distance myself, is when people say these things like, oh, yeah, psilocybin mushrooms, they’ll save the world.聽Well, I think they have a lot of potential, right?聽I think these mushrooms can have a lot of greatness, but we’ve not learned from our history if we think that they’re only good, right?聽

Speaker 2

33:52
Like, if we look at the Mexica, which we now call the Aztec Empire, but the people call themselves so it’s called Mexico.聽Mexico, this kind of stuff.聽They were working with these mushrooms.聽They were not working with benzes.聽That’s another thing.聽In some regions of Mexico and Central America, they call them the white man’s mushroom because they grow from cattle dong.聽And we brought the cattles, we brought the horses, we brought all those things that were not present in Central America at this time.聽So you didn’t really have these mushrooms during this time frame.聽They were mainly working with philosophy.聽Mexicana.聽Cyanescence chiralescence.聽The roombase is the chiralescence.聽All these different mushrooms, right?聽So if you do any of and you could argue that this is like most of what we have in the literature is written by the Spanish, right?聽

Speaker 2

34:37
So you could argue that this isn’t as extreme as the literature right now is saying.聽But they had this whole blood cold, right, with working with mushrooms.聽Moktazuma, the last emperor of the empire, he consumed these mushrooms to try to talk to Wichliopushli, which was the war gods, to try to get war advice on beating cortez.聽That’s like a way that they use these mushrooms.聽Like these priests would be consuming these mushrooms and that are supposed to make us so much more empathetic and cut out people’s hearts and then hold out the heart and throw it on the body.聽We have to understand that can also happen in a culture that is very accustomed to working with these mushrooms.聽

Speaker 2

35:21
I’m not saying that we’re going there right now, but I know plenty of people that have consumed these mushrooms a lot and that they’re not necessarily good people.聽It doesn’t make you a better person just because you’ve ate some psychedelics and I think that’s really important to understand.聽

Speaker 1

35:37
It could amplify their narcissistic character.聽For instance, if you say, oh, give Putin or Trump a mushroom and the world will better, it probably will amplify his whole viewpoint on how he sees the world.聽

Speaker 2

35:52
Yeah, there’s a term that I like to repopularize.聽It’s psychedelic induced ego inflation.聽

Speaker 1

35:57
Oh yeah, we talked about that.聽

Speaker 3

36:00
Yeah, it definitely exists and might be growing.聽

Speaker 2

36:03
It is growing.聽What’s the archetype of the people that go to the Amazon once and just like Spirit Ayahuasca told me I need to be like there’s so much ego, I need to be their medicine keeper, only I and there’s like oh, I need to start like a psychedelic startup for the good of humanity.聽

Speaker 3

36:18
Totally.聽Yeah.聽And there’s so many things going on, like even Burning Man, like look at it elitist class oriented society.聽But no, it’s all for the good and it’s all sort of creating an ideal society but actually it’s also a replication of what we see in our society.聽

Speaker 2

36:38
Of course some people like go there with their tents and just with more.聽

Speaker 3

36:41
Colorful feathers and furs and all that.聽

Speaker 2

36:44
Led lights that are thrown away after.聽

Speaker 1

36:46
Yeah, I would like to go there once.聽

Speaker 2

36:53
I don’t think I would go like I would have gone like ten years ago.聽Right now I’m like but that also goes against the whole idea that you’re out there and you have to fend for yourself.聽And I think that’s where people have the issue with the idea is like, this is tough.聽You need to bring in your own water.聽And then some people get flown in with private jets and then they come to this camp that has AC and there’s cold showers and it’s like being in a resort while the whole idea of the experience is that you are.聽

Speaker 1

37:23
Like, it is tough.聽

Speaker 3

37:26
Yeah, for some reason the idea could be great and the idea is also, oh, we’re all equal because we’re all in the desert and surviving but somehow it starts to evolve into a class society again.聽And coming back to your point also of the ego inflation psychedelics dynamics, I wonder if it also can have to do with intention.聽That if you know, when we’re even when we’re talking about micro dosing, we always say it kind of works with you and you set an intention so you are intentional about what you want to achieve and maybe it supports you with achieving that intention so it becomes your ally.聽So this is what I’m just like as a thought experiment.聽Yeah.聽

Speaker 3

38:08
If your intention is to make more money or to become the top leader or the messiah or the new whatever, then maybe they just support you in that they can be your little helper.聽

Speaker 2

38:19
Probably.聽

Speaker 3

38:19
Yeah, maybe they have no say in that.聽

Speaker 2

38:23
Well, this comes to the point also with like maybe that’s where I wanted to take the conversation a little bit with also some of the I think also microdosing is prone to like, oh yeah, it’s only good.聽But I think sometimes when we love something and hey, I’m microdosing LSD right now.聽Personally, in certain moments of my life, I feel super held and helped by having a microdosing practice.聽But I think sometimes it can be put into this corner of like, oh, yeah, it definitely works.聽And I think what you just said, intention and working with something and kind of putting your ego to the side of, like, what is something bigger that can help me?聽Can actually be more potent than actually taking that tiny amount of the substance.聽And I think that’s something that played.聽

Speaker 2

39:07
And I was actually just looking at a paper by Cavana of 2022.聽They had 34 people, and they gave those people like, it was a double blind, placebo controlled study, a 0.5 grams dose, which is not much like some people would say that is below the threshold.聽

Speaker 3

39:26
Not a micro dose, but it’s no.聽

Speaker 2

39:28
0.50.5, no.聽Okay, wait, maybe my notes are no, it is half a gram.聽Oh, my God.聽They give people half a gram.聽That’s a mini dose.聽That’s a museum dose.聽Look at that.聽And there was no increase in well being or creativity or lots of things that are being claimed.聽And this was done over like, a longer period of time.聽It must say that it was done per day, right?聽So they gave them a dose one day and then it didn’t.聽But 0.5, you probably feel so the people that were in the placebo probably knew at the time that they were in placebo.聽But that’s a study from last year that didn’t show any increase in creativity, mental well being, all these kind of things, right?聽And I think sometimes when those things come out, they’re just pushed under the rug.聽

Speaker 2

40:11
In the psychedelic debate, when we find something that is not according to our liking, I think it’s very interesting to bring up in this podcast about microdosing, it’s like, what’s your take on this?聽Are you keeping up with these things?聽Do you share these findings?聽

Speaker 3

40:24
It’s a very good point.聽And also knowing that I find science also very interesting, I think at this point, it says a lot about how research is being done as well.聽And Ein and I, we talk a lot about bringing people into a lab and giving them any low dose of a psychedelic and then studying their reaction and having them do, like, tests on a computer in a space.聽Where there’s hardly any oxygen and no natural light, no interactions with other people, like nothing that can make you creative, let’s say, or open up your creativity or your sense of well being.聽So that’s, I think, one very important thing that we have to take into account when we’re talking about microdosing research.聽

Speaker 3

41:07
And then, yes, the overwhelming positive anecdotal response is always when people take it into their daily life, where they have their struggles, maybe with their partner, with their work, with their kids, like keeping up all the juggling, all the responsibilities and so and then they say, oh, actually, I feel so much more relaxed and I feel less rigid in my thinking.聽And how to measure that.聽Yeah, it’s how to measure that.聽And then the funny thing is, which I also find super surprising and we see this in our programs, that people actually feel all these benefits on very low doses.聽So on, for instance, not 0.5, but.聽

Speaker 2

41:48
0.5, that’s also my microdose when I take mushrooms, like 0.1 can throw me off, actually.聽

Speaker 3

41:57
And then a researcher would say more research needs to be done, we need to replicate some of these studies and really see if we can replicate the results.聽But I think that would need to be done in a way that it also makes sense and not in a way that, oh yeah, bringing people into these dark, small labs without the daylight and without them allowing them to even be a human basically doesn’t make sense to study it that way.聽

Speaker 2

42:22
Yeah, I 100% agree.聽

Speaker 1

42:24
When we started the platform, we didn’t want to have a platform just to emphasize and have a sort of a beautiful story about what the benefits are from microdosing.聽We always wanted to have a realistic viewpoint.聽So if there’s like a study of the self blinding study of Imperial College where they found out that the placebo effect was really an issue or present, then, yeah, we are not rubbing it on the carpet.聽We just want to also have a discussion about that.聽Of course.聽And I think the first page we wrote when we started the website was like, okay, there is a placebo effect because your expectations always influence the outcome, whatever you do.聽Also with psychedelics, especially in psychedelics, especially because yeah, set and setting is the easiest example.聽

Speaker 1

43:19
When they did it in the 60s, they already knew that psychedelics can be your experience can be constructed.聽If you do it in the right setting, you probably have a positive effect.聽If you do it in prison and you get beaten, then you have a negative effect, for instance.聽But yeah, we want to really also zoom in on these other issues and not only have the beautiful stories about microdosing, but of course, history is written by winners.聽So we have a hard time to find people who have a negative experience, for instance.聽But we wanted to speak to them also and also speak out what was their experience.聽So we find that really important.聽

Speaker 3

44:05
Right now, it’s only like a handful of things, right.聽Some people get a bit of a.聽

Speaker 2

44:09
Headache, tinnitus can come, tinnitus can become.聽

Speaker 1

44:13
Yeah, some people have an increase in tinnitus.聽

Speaker 2

44:15
Some people have decreased in tinnitus though.聽

Speaker 3

44:17
Right.聽

Speaker 1

44:18
Also, yeah.聽And it’s good that we give attention to that because then maybe researchers can pick it up and trying to find out where it comes from and why that is.聽

Speaker 2

44:33
Yeah, and sometimes I feel in the psychedelic debate in general, I think all those things are just kind of pushed aside and I think that’s not like yeah, I fully agree that doing these studies in a lab is the same.聽I just talked to Julian Vain who did the prolonged DMT experience and it’s also just in a lab in a dentist chair and just getting like DMT in his vein.聽It’s like, yeah, that’s not necessarily a place that I want to experience that.聽

Speaker 3

44:56
But then again, DMT is so strong it’s injected so they can for sure study everything.聽

Speaker 2

45:03
But what I do think is that coming back to this idea that the placebo is you, right?聽So we come back to this saying that Maria Sabina said decades ago you are the medicine.聽Right?聽And I personally encountered challenging things coming up and I had a microdosing regimen.聽Right now I’m more intuitive but I would get too emotional and sometimes that’s great, but sometimes I’d be like even on 0.10.5 I’d be like I don’t want to do this thing that really need to do right now.聽I just want to sit by the river.聽But that’s also not life.聽Totally right here as well.聽

Speaker 3

45:45
There are days that I’m like, today I’m definitely not going to microdose.聽

Speaker 1

45:49
And it’s a good example because it’s not the microdose but it’s you that experience that and it doesn’t have to be for someone else that have the same and some people draw conclusions from their own experience and saying hey, it is also accountable for other people.聽

Speaker 3

46:09
No, and this is also, I think to your point, these things, you also start to see them more clearly when you develop that personal relationship and then you can say hey, wait, on some days it’s affecting me like this and on other days it’s amplifying that.聽But in a way you’re actually developing a relationship with yourself and with your own sort of inner world and also how you react with the outside world.聽So I do think psychedelics and microdosing have a very interesting yeah, it’s kind of like a window between the outside world and your inner world and that lets you communicate both ways and see with more clarity what’s going on, whether you like it or not.聽

Speaker 2

46:48
No, for sure.聽And I think it’s important not to sugarcoat any of things and I think it’s also a sign of our society.聽It’s just like, it’s like I like this and then everybody becomes like a sort of warrior for their belief instead of just being that’s what I think fungi and therefore intern psychedelics can teach me, and I have taught me is just to be more neutral.聽There’s nothing inherently good or bad, right?聽And therefore there’s not also something inherently good.聽Although back in the day, I used to be like, oh, everybody should take psychedelics.聽Let’s put LSD in the water supply.聽But I think now I have more experience, I just grow more nuanced and also to the things that I’m prone to be wanting to believe.聽

Speaker 2

47:35
I’m always stoked if something that I’ve had held on for a long time is proven to be questioned, which I think is, wow, this is interesting.聽Now we’re having a conversation, we’re having healthy debate here.聽

Speaker 3

47:46
Yes, but then how do you see so what we saw a lot, especially in the beginning when microdosing, when we’re sort of mapping out this territory, and James Fademan, with all the reports that he like, it seemed that people, for instance, the more depressed they were, the more benefit they were seeing from microdosing.聽So the more something was out of balance, the more it got into balance.聽So there seems to be something there as well.聽I don’t know if this is your experience or I just wanted to bring it into this conversation.聽

Speaker 2

48:21
Yeah.聽Again, what way are they micro normals.聽

Speaker 3

48:24
Or as far as you can say that?聽We’re talking about our own experiences where we can say, let’s be a little bit more neutral and let’s just observe what’s going on.聽But someone who really has been depressed for 20 years and hasn’t found any remedies and whatever the situation might be, but very much in a deep depression and takes one microdose and says, wait, wow, now this is something else.聽This is completely different.聽

Speaker 2

48:52
And there’s also tons of people that read that and have that experience, but then they don’t feel better.聽Right.聽That’s also real.聽I’m very happy that works for these people.聽Again, this is intuitively experienced.聽But also, I think it’s a fusion right.聽Of the science and the spirit high doses work.聽Nobody is questioning that at this stage.聽Going deep in a journey I think really works.聽I think micro dosing is also personally, I think this most beneficial as an integration practice, not as the intro practice.聽If you really want to change, like a lifestyle, if you really want to feel mentally better, I think starting with microdoses is like dipping your toe in the water and saying, I did cold water exposure.聽No, you didn’t.聽Right.聽Like, there was this meme the other day.聽It’s like somebody skating on ice.聽

Speaker 2

49:46
It’s like microdosing and then somebody swimming under the ice.聽Macro dosing.聽Right.聽I thought it was pretty like I think we’re just living in a memified world.聽I personally believe in the power of the macro dose in a real deep journey where you come face to face with whatever is causing this challenge within your personal worlds and then using microdosing as an integration tool.聽

Speaker 1

50:10
Well, I think also that it can help with integrating these insights because the insights you gain with a higher dose can be like a hurricane for some people can be very confusing.聽Also, what we see is that as an aftercare micro dosing can, that you stay connected to the earth or plant medicine you used for a high dose.聽

Speaker 2

50:35
And then these mushroom medicine mushrooms are not plants.聽Mushrooms, yeah.聽

Speaker 1

50:39
Or earth medicine.聽

Speaker 2

50:40
Earth medicine, yeah.聽

Speaker 1

50:43
I think that’s the power.聽And we believe also that when it becomes an official treatment, that micro dosing can play a role in that after care part or if people are very anxious or they want to try it out, but they still don’t.聽Want to do a high dose then as an introduction to learn the potential healing in a very safe way and very cautionally taking tiny amounts first.聽That could also help being more confident in taking the step of a higher dose.聽

Speaker 3

51:18
Yeah, I think the dipping the toes in the water, for some people, it is a good way to get started.聽

Speaker 1

51:24
To like the side wheel of side wheels of your bicycle.聽

Speaker 2

51:28
It was a very Dutch metaphor.聽Yeah.聽I think our society is like a little bit too much focused on the cushioning, the blow, and I think sometimes we need more of like, okay, do the thing that really scares you.聽Don’t ease into it always.聽Right.聽Because it’s the same with why we see so much beneficial people coming out of Wim HOF method.聽Right?聽It’s like, oh yeah, I don’t want to hike up a mountain in my underwear, but now we’re doing it and it’s hard.聽But facing your fears, facing what is difficult, is actually where a lot of the healing is happening.聽And, yeah, I think we’re all living in houses that have very comfortable couches, and then we have all we’re already.聽

Speaker 3

52:15
Complaining when a train is five minutes late, and then we’re calling the people where we’re traveling to like, hey, I’m going to be five minutes late.聽

Speaker 2

52:22
Yeah, well, that’s really that level of.聽

Speaker 3

52:25
Comfort that we need and safety that we need in order to live.聽I see what you mean there.聽

Speaker 2

52:32
Yeah.聽

Speaker 3

52:34
I have a different question though, because we’ve been touching on some of the topics that Paul Stammets has brought in or has popularized, and one of them is stacking.聽In general, small doses of mushrooms can be combined with other mushrooms and also, for instance, with cacao.聽A lot of people are very keen on combining it with cacao.聽I’m just super high if I do.聽

Speaker 2

53:04
First of all, I’m like I’m not very impressed.聽I understand it from a business perspective.聽The Stammet stack is patented.聽

Speaker 3

53:11
Yes.聽

Speaker 2

53:12
And it’s not a public patent, so I understand it from a business perspective.聽But they’re too taking a niacin aside because I’m not fan of the niacin.聽I understand it from a biochemical level, I think, but I personally never had good experiences combining it with niacin.聽But combining two mushrooms that naturally grow together and having a patent on nature to me is very crazy.聽But that’s my personal opinion on that matter.聽Also, if you want niacin, but you want to do it pure, natural.聽There’s actually turkey till mushroom also produces a lot of natural niacin.聽So you can just combine lion’s mane cubensis or another philosophy or psychedelic mushroom with turkey till.聽Then you get some niacin.聽You don’t get the flushes right.聽You don’t get the oh, my God.聽

Speaker 2

53:55
I’m like my so I think the other day, not too long ago, I was still a fungus.聽So this is a couple of months ago, somebody accidentally thought that they used baking soda while making cookies for everybody, but they grabbed a jar of niacin that we had in the kitchen, and everybody thought they were having, like, allergic reactions.聽

Speaker 1

54:13
Okay.聽

Speaker 2

54:13
Yeah.聽

Speaker 3

54:14
It’s really intense.聽People who are listening, niacin especially, it also depends on the dose, but many of these supplements pills come at, like, 200 milligrams or I think it’s like.聽

Speaker 2

54:25
It might be right.聽B three.聽Can we look this up later?聽

Speaker 3

54:27
B three.聽And it gives me also this huge red your whole face becomes red, your whole body becomes red, and it becomes itching and tingling and yeah, that’s why to push the psilocybin through the blood brain barrier.聽

Speaker 2

54:41
Citizen yeah, the psilocybin.聽Because the psilocybin never goes through the blood brain barrier.聽Yeah.聽

Speaker 1

54:46
And the lines main.聽

Speaker 2

54:47
Yeah.聽

Speaker 1

54:48
That’s why we want to have Paul Stemus also in the post, of course.聽

Speaker 2

54:53
He’s the most popular kids right now.聽Come on.聽

Speaker 1

54:55
Also because there are a lot of questions.聽Like, I was at breaking convention last.聽

Speaker 2

55:00
Year, the last May or something.聽Right.聽

Speaker 1

55:02
And he adjusts his protocol all the time.聽Also, it was first five days on, two days off.聽Now it’s four days on, three days off because the tolerance but also, I noticed that at first he said 100 to 200 milligrams of niacin, but everybody had a flush, and it was very unpleasant.聽So now it’s like zero point 25 milligrams or 0.5 milligrams of niacin.聽

Speaker 3

55:30
25 or 50 milligrams.聽Yeah, of niacin.聽

Speaker 2

55:37
Okay.聽

Speaker 1

55:40
Indeed.聽No, zero point 25 grams.聽

Speaker 3

55:44
No, it’s either grams or milligrams.聽

Speaker 1

55:46
No, because he said 100 milligram.聽

Speaker 2

55:48
Yeah.聽

Speaker 1

55:48
But it’s important because people mistake.聽So it’s 100 to 200 milligrams was first his advice, and now it’s zero point 50.聽

Speaker 2

55:59
Yeah.聽

Speaker 1

56:00
Okay.聽

Speaker 3

56:00
Yeah, I’ve tried it myself.聽For me, that was the difference between having this huge flush effect at 200 and not having a flush at 50 grams, but okay.聽

Speaker 1

56:12
Yeah, let’s move on to that.聽You’re not really a fan of this stacking, but the synergy of these two.聽

Speaker 2

56:19
Mushrooms, if you take fruiting body extracts, like, especially foodspole, shout out foodspurger, some of the best products out there.聽But again, this is right now, it’s hard.聽Okay.聽So I’m helping out an organization that’s trying to get a profile tracking of the mushroom extracts that they’re supplying to their customers.聽It’s hard to find labs that do this.聽There’s a lab that does it, but that’s in La.聽And that’s a lab that I know certain big companies, including probably I even forget the name, doesn’t matter.聽A lot of people use this lab, but it’s what is called a dry lab.聽You give them like, I’ll give you this pen.聽It’s like, I want to find this and this and this, and they’ll give you the results, kind of.聽

Speaker 2

57:07
So it’s really hard in this stage to really find a good profile and what molecules are actually having these beneficial properties.聽Personally, for me, if we talk about this whole mycelium versus mushroom debate, if you get the mycelium without the grains, I think there could beneficial properties in it.聽Most of the grain, like mycelium products, have 80% grains, including pulse damage product.聽There’s no debate around that.聽So if you want to buy expensive grain spawn, sure, you can do that.聽I think that’s your choice.聽And there’s an argument that some of this myceliation can actually produce novel alkaloids.聽That could beneficial, but in what properties?聽But I see it as the mushroom is the gift of the organism, right?聽That’s the gift to the animal kingdom.聽We are part of the animal kingdom.聽We interact with the mushroom.聽In the natural world.聽

Speaker 2

58:00
We don’t interact so much with the mycelium.聽So I think the mushroom is its gift and therefore has more benefits.聽And with that, you also don’t get grains.聽And if you’re good at extracting, you can do really concentrated extracts that I don’t see happening from mycelium products as of late.聽So if you’re interested, you can also just grow them yourself and eat them.聽That’s like turkey tail you can’t eat.聽So you probably have to make a tincture or something or make a tea.聽That’s also really beneficial.聽But if you want to have lions mane and you don’t want to deal with putting drops of lions mane in your mouth, you can just buy lions mane, and you just can cook it, and it’s delicious, and you just eat it, and then you get beneficial property effects as well.聽

Speaker 2

58:43
So I think it’s really good to combine all the mushrooms.聽I’ve never read a report about any contraindications of combining too many mushrooms.聽You can just combine all them.聽I think there’s a lot of macronutrients that you don’t find anywhere else present.聽Like, there’s so many novel compounds, which means that these compounds are not found anywhere else that have shown to have really beneficial effects on the human body.聽So I think stack them all for sure.聽I think with cacao is also getting more popular.聽I think cacao also has these novel compounds.聽Theobromine is phenomenal.聽Makes me feel really good.聽If I combine it with the microdose, I get way too high.聽I need a half to lower.聽I need half at least.聽And then same with coffee, by the way.聽For me, it’s like I get I.聽

Speaker 1

59:30
Have one question about combining all the mushrooms, but the medicinal mushroom or functional mushrooms, because.聽

Speaker 2

59:36
We’re not in that business.聽We can just call them medicine.聽

Speaker 1

59:38
Oh, yeah.聽

Speaker 2

59:39
If you’re in the business, you have legal obligations.聽

Speaker 3

59:42
You cannot consume this amount.聽

Speaker 1

59:44
So we get a lot of questions about Histamine that some people get an allergic reaction.聽

Speaker 2

59:50
Yeah.聽Turkey dill can be immunostimulating.聽Reishi should actually be and it’s a popular term that it’s hard to really define certain alkaloids to this idea, but, like, immunomodulating.聽So a lot of people actually have a reduction of allergic effects after taking Reishi for a consistent time.聽Okay, so I don’t know what mushrooms they’re taking if they’re having that allergic reaction.聽

Well, sometimes with truffles, for instance, or with lions mane, and they have like, hey, I’m very histamine sensitive, and I don’t know that much about what histamine is and what it does and why they have an allergic reaction.聽

Yeah.聽So I’m not too familiar with the biochemistry of truffles because I don’t think many people have researched this.聽I personally get more nauseous, and that seems to be a common theme, that the truffles, which are not technically truffles, the sclerosia, it’s a technical term.聽Truffles produce fruits, produce spores, sclerosha, don’t.聽So that’s like a little side thing.聽But yeah, I’m not a doctor.聽I don’t know why that would produce.聽I know that for a lot of people and what we also see in the thousands of research papers done on Reishi that it does have antihistamatic properties.聽So maybe if they have that reaction, maybe combine it with Reishi, see how that feels.聽

Okay.聽

Maybe it balances each other out.聽But also, if you’re allergic to mushrooms, histamine is causing the allergic reaction, then yeah, that’s probably also something you just have to deal with, but not something that can necessarily be prevented.聽

Thousands, if not, of species of mushroom.聽You cannot be allergic to all mushrooms.聽You cannot be allergic to all plants.聽You cannot be allergic to all animals.聽Maybe to all mammals.聽I guess those people exist.聽

Okay, so if someone says, I’m allergic to mushrooms, the edible ones, I cannot eat them or champagnes or whatever, but it doesn’t mean that they cannot try magic mushrooms for a microdose first.聽

I would probably there could be a chance that they allergic to all Basidio mic?聽I don’t think so.聽They’re too different.聽They’re too different.聽Yeah.聽Again, I’m not a doctor.聽I don’t know how the hashtag system work, because I also think that allergy has to do, again, with you can have a placebo thinking that something is good for you, but you can also have a no SIBO thinking that something is bad for you.聽And I think the histamic system might be attached to that.聽I was gluten intolerant for a long time, and then I was like, one day I was like, today I’m on holiday.聽I’m going to have a beer.聽It’s going to be nice.聽And I didn’t have any effects.聽And then after I started eating gluten, again, so there is a mind body connection to that system as well, I think.聽

Yeah, definitely with tolerances and maybe with allergies as well.聽

Not for everybody, right.聽Sometimes it’s purely physical.聽That’s a really valid experience.聽

Yeah.聽Okay, we don’t have too much time left, but I kind of want to still ask you two questions.聽Great, okay.聽Is there anything, whether it’s in the world of Mycology or something that you’re working on or maybe both, that you’re very excited about when it comes to the near future?聽Any developments?聽

Okay, so there’s a really big movement happening right now spearheaded by Juliana Fusi of the Fungi Foundation.聽We grew up with this idea that we have flora and fauna, right?聽But in reality it’s flora, fauna and funga and acknowledging that the fungal kingdom or queendom has its place in that line.聽That’s why I always have to vomit a little bit when people just say plant medicine when they’re talking about mushrooms.聽I’m not a fan of that at all, but really acknowledging that these organisms are different than plants, we call it earth medicine.聽Yeah, earth medicines is great.聽Yeah.聽I love Earth medicines.聽Just call them psychedelics.聽If we’re talking about psychedelics, we don’t always have to attach this name medicine to it.聽

But yeah, I think that’s a really good movement and it’s lots of initiatives all over the world that are happening right now.聽I know Chile also made it.聽I don’t know how I’m not in that whole changes legislation and naming of things, but I know that some countries have already officially acknowledged it and are now teaching it in schools and universities, et cetera.聽So I think that’s a really good movement which is happening within Mycology right now.聽There’s so much, it’s so booming.聽I think the best thing, if you want to get into it, find somebody that knows more than you do in your local area and ask if you can go on a mushroom foray with them and communicate.聽Interact.聽If you don’t know anybody, you can just look at them and say hi and use tools like inaturalist or other.聽

You can get apps that help you identify mushrooms with your phone and don’t think about consuming them, don’t think about like, oh, I’m going to find psychedelics once.聽At first, just try to get familiar and start seeing the difference between the genera.聽Right?聽Because to me it’s so funny when people like the other day somebody showed me a picture of a rusala, I was like, oh, is this an amanita?聽I was like, they look so different.聽It’s like asking somebody, it’s like, Yo, is this a banana?聽And they hold a coconut in their hand.聽To me.聽

I remember having walked in the forest in autumn when they’re just coming out all the different mushrooms and you’re walking to the forest and you see something red and the first thing you go is like, is that an amanita?聽And then oh, no, wait, it looks quite different.聽

Yeah, exactly.聽

But like the threshold of catching a bit more into the Mushroom Queendom.聽

Yeah, exactly.聽So that’s interesting.聽If you want to get more into this is a big ass project that I just worked for years on.聽We just finished a fungal ecology course.聽We also have discount codes.聽Microdosing Institute, that’s a code for all of our online courses.聽It’s 30% off of the courses.聽And you’re helping this amazing podcast as well.聽Commercial time.聽Ding ding.聽But the fungal ecology course is like the one I’m very proud of right now.聽It has 50 videos, but then we also have ten Mushroom Master classes with experts including Juliana Fersi, also William PDA.聽Brown, who’s an amazing mycologist.聽We have some amazing scientists and some other people that just are mycophasant lovers and are working with fungal bio remediation and all this stuff, different stuff.聽

So if you’re interested and you want to learn difference, what is a mycorrhizal fungus, what is an endophytic fungus?聽And really learning more about this queendom that’s now being so popular.聽I think it’s a great place to start and it’s fun and accessible and all those things.聽So I’m very happy with that and I think that’s all that things happening in my sphere.聽

Yeah.聽Thank you.聽I’ve come to the course or come.聽

To Guatemala, sign up for the waiting list.聽

It’s so busy now.聽

Yeah, I think we have only a couple spots available in January now, but there’s a bit like we’re still working with the application process.聽Yeah, of course.聽But we’re also going to do them all year round.聽And if you want to collaborate, reach out, especially in Europe.聽I have some plans.聽I want to bacok.聽Stove is a good word in Dutch that we don’t really translate.聽

There’s a lot of cooking, there’s a.聽

Lot behind the scenes, there’s a lot of ideas cooking.聽So always looking for help in that sense, if you have something cool to bring, but yeah, I think that’s it on my end.聽

Cool.聽

What’s happening?聽

Thank you.聽I don’t want to overuse the word mycelial network here, but I do think you guys, we did really mycelio when it comes to all your collaboration.聽

I think this is the first time.聽

We talked about bringing people in, spreading the nutrients, spreading the spores, spreading the spore wisdom, and I think it really trickles through quite a lot, actually.聽

Yeah, and thank you as well.聽You guys are doing this as well.聽And I feel like you guys are a lot more accessible for the what was the term you used before?聽The healthy normals.聽Healthy normals generally attract a little bit more of the neurodivergent in all the good senses.聽

No, neurodivergent is also healthy normal.聽

Yeah, I know.聽Nowadays I’m definitely neurodivergent.聽I’m proud for sure.聽You guys make it so accessible and I feel like safe, especially for people that are completely new to this all.聽So I think that’s really important.聽

Yeah.聽Hopefully for everyone and yes, other cool.聽

Dutchies that are so weird.聽It’s so accessible here.聽Where’s all the other Dutchies at?聽

I do think the Dutch need more time in this time day and age.聽We’re not colonizing the world.聽I think we’re taking it a little.聽

Bit more easily and hopefully people would argue against that.聽We’re still probably happening.聽

Anyway.聽

Where can we find you online?聽

Fungi academy everywhere.聽We’re on YouTube, fungicademy.com, we’re on Instagram, all the places.聽So just fungi.聽Fungi and then Academy and then you can find me on Instagram at Jesperius is my name.聽IUSs and then you can see whenever I want to post.聽It’s a lot less frequent than Fungiacademy.com, that’s for sure.聽

No, you guys have a really amazing team and yeah, so great, all the stuff that you’re putting out there.聽So I do recommend follow them, subscribe to their newsletter.聽

I love your newsletter.com.聽

Every week, the fun in Fungi.聽And we’ll put also the discount code in the show notes and with all the links.聽

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