In this soulful episode with Anna Heil we delve into the importance of personal choice and support during childbirth, emphasizing emotional well-being for mothers and their partners during pregnancy and parenthood. Anna discusses how some mothers have reported the positive results of using psilocybin microdoses for mood swings and anxiety during pregnancy and breastfeeding. We also talk about how microdosing can increase awareness, and plant medicines can help embrace our divinity and humanness as parents. As Anna underlines, we should see becoming a mother as the ultimate rite of passage; it’s mega transformational, it’s ceremonial, it’s meaningful, and it’s a path of learning and becoming.
About Anna Catharin Heil
Anna Catharin Heil is a psychedelic ceremony facilitator, birth doula, holistic health coach, breathwork professional and musician. She has guided hundreds of people through psychedelic journeys in both group and individual settings, and is currently working on setting up a comprehensive program that pays close attention to proper preparation and integration pre- and post-journey. Anna has spent much time studying with different indigenous tribes, as well as “modern” curanderos, and in her own work mainly collaborates with the medicines of the psilocybin truffles, cacao and hapé.
Microdosing Table Talk Episode 28
- Introduction to Anna and her ‘many professions’
- Pregnancy and body connection
- Midwife vs Doula
- Personal choice in pregnancy and birth
- Use of plant medicines to support pregnancy
- Motherhood as the ultimate rite of passage
- The concept of second puberty
- Microdosing and personal growth
- Parenting as a spiritual practice
- Why we need to be open and honest about both the positive and the challenging aspects of pregnancy, motherhood, and childbirth
Disclaimer: Microdosing Institute is an information platform and a community with the sole purpose of providing education on microdosing. We do not encourage the illegal use of psychedelics. Even though we discuss the many benefits of microdosing, we do not claim that microdosing is proven effective as a medicine, medicinal aid or supplement, or that it could be seen as a replacement for conventional therapies or medicines.
Watch the full Microdosing Table Talk on Youtube or listen via your preferred podcasting platform.
Additional Resources
- Learn more about the Yawanawa people in Brazil
- Microdosing While Breastfeeding: How Safe Is It?
- Psychedelics and Pregnancy – Psychedelics Today
- Share Your Story – Contribute to the Mushrooms & Motherhood citizen science project
Connect with Anna
- Website: Annaheil.com
- Bliss and Butter Podcast (on Spotify)
- Instagram: @annacatharinheil
Microdose with us
- Join the next 6-Week Microdosing Immersive group program
- Learn how to microdose with our self-guided video course
Podcast Transcript
02.43
Speaker 1
We’ve been connecting in different ways here in the Netherlands, as all members of the psychedelics and plant medicine space here. And I’m really excited to speak with you about a topic that is always it can be a little bit controversial, but there’s so much to say about it, so that’s why I’m super happy. And that is motherhood. And you’re in your second pregnancy, so first of all, maybe how’s your pregnancy been going up until now?
Speaker 1
·
03:18
I’m feeling a lot better. My first one I was cruising through so I was kind of hoping for the second one to be somewhat similar and this one surprised me. I was feeling a lot of nausea and a lot of intense fatigue at the beginning, but I feel like I’m out of the worst right now, so I’m just celebrating every day that I have in good energy and good spirits and today is one of those days.
Speaker 4
·
03:46
Well, good that we can be a part of it.
Speaker 3
·
03:50
Exactly. Yeah, I can imagine that every day is a surprise and you have to roll with it and kind of see what the body wants.
Speaker 1
·
04:01
Yeah, exactly. It’s actually a really beautiful time to connect deeper to your own body. And I think this is what this pregnancy is bringing me. But also the last pregnancy brought me to a really large degree is to and I’m not somebody who’s disconnected from her body. I’ve always worked out a lot. I’ve always been really conscious in checking in with my body and fostering that relationship between body and mind and body and spirit. And at the same time, pregnancy, I feel, is really a moment of heightened intuition, but also heightened sensitivity in the body in the sense that you don’t actually have to tune in so much to understand what your body is asking for. It’s really communicating so clearly.
Speaker 1
·
04:51
And what I think I’ve managed to take out of my last pregnancy and I’m hoping to take out of this one even more is to keep that connection and to strengthen connection, let’s put it that way. Where I yeah, I found it a deeper sense of how to fine tune that understanding of what my body is trying to communicate back to me all the time, which we in our modern society where there’s so much going on. There’s always so much input, so many things that aren’t necessarily good for us, for our nervous system, for our body’s well being. We’ve just really learned how to override that and we’re also in many ways encouraged to override that.
Speaker 1
·
05:38
So I think this is really something that I’m taking out as one of those big gifts from pregnancy to fine tune that connection again and that feedback loop.
Speaker 3
·
05:49
Yeah, that’s a beautiful way of putting it, actually. It makes me think like is pregnancy like a big biohack?
Speaker 1
·
05:58
Well, in some ways, yes. It also takes a big toll on the body, for sure. I mean, there’s many anecdotal stories of women healing from certain hormonal conditions, for example, after going through pregnancy. So women that, for example, suffered from PCOS and had big difficulties getting pregnant in the first place, that move on to have almost gotten rid of that issue completely and find that getting pregnant with the second and third child is much easier, for example. I mean, there’s so many stories around this. This is, I guess not what this podcast is about today. No. But yeah, of course it also takes a big toll on the body and you really feel that your body is and this is a beautiful preparation also for motherhood, for parenthood is in service. So your body is no longer simply about keeping you alive.
Speaker 1
·
07:01
It’s just the host of another human being that’s growing. And I felt this many times throughout both of these pregnancies that as long as I’m still alive and keeping this baby alive, that’s good enough. And yeah, you’re really stepping into an era of service, so to say. Also, as you shift into this archetype of a mother, archetype of a parent, of a caregiver, it’s no longer the most important thing in life for you to be well and for you to be sort of the first priority. But it’s really about stepping into service of something else, of somebody else, of something bigger than you, something outside of you. So in that sense, it’s also, in a way, really humbling and really potent to feel during pregnancy that this time of just being responsible for yourself and your own well being is over.
Speaker 1
·
08:03
And now it’s about service.
Speaker 4
·
08:07
Beautiful spiritual practice.
Speaker 1
·
08:11
Pregnancy, birth, parenthood, so not just motherhood. It’s all a very good spiritual practice, if you see it as such.
Speaker 3
·
08:20
Yeah, and this is great. I mean, I really love it because now we’re really able to kind of map this territory a little bit of what it means, what motherhood actually means, and not only on the physical level, but it’s so intertwined with the emotional, the psychological and the spiritual. And yeah, what you’ve just mentioned here, that adds a lot of color already and fills in colors in that map a little bit. Yeah. But also to take our listeners a little bit more on a journey with you, I would like to go a bit more towards your work and what you actually do. So there are three different professions on your bio, and that’s a birth doula, a holistic health coach, and also a psychedelic facilitator.
Speaker 3
·
09:14
And someone may think like, oh, wait, those are three different professions, but you actually feel that they’re very much related. So can you explain a little bit more what you do and what the relation is here?
Speaker 1
·
09:27
Absolutely. And I mean, yeah, these are of course very relevant freestanding professions on their own. And in that sense, of course, also there’s people that surely dive a lot deeper into each of those individual roles than I might do in my work. But like you already mentioned, I feel like these roles are, in essence, if you kind of see a red thread between those very much connected, because what I see as my mission with my work or my dharma, my life’s purpose, whatever you might want to call it, is to support people through moments of growth and transformation. And that happens in ceremony when working with psychedelics. And that happens during birth, which is, if you ask me, a big ceremony in its own way.
Speaker 1
·
10:21
And that also happens if you pay close attention and elevate your health because I always feel like your physical health. So this physical body that we’ve been gifted is almost like a vehicle for our spirit. So it’s a vehicle for us to be able to experience life on earth and to do all the things we want to do and to experience all the things we want to experience and to grow spiritually, if that’s your path to create, to really manifest something in this 3D reality that we’re in. So the better you’re equipped to do that. So the more freely you can move, the more freely you can express yourself, the healthier you are, the more potent your spirit, your path, your mission is, and the more able you’re really able to create and put something out into the world.
Speaker 1
·
11:17
And poor health is limiting us in our personal expression. So the better we take care of our vehicle, the better we’re able to live this life, essentially and leave a footprint or yeah, whatever you might want to sort of leave behind. And this doesn’t have to be a big legacy of like people in hundreds and thousands of years are still going to remember me. It’s more about the little things, the little changes that you feel are important in your personal life and it’s different for every single one of us. Of course, I always feel like health is a tool, it’s not a goal in itself, at least to me. I feel like you don’t want to be healthy. This is not the end goal. It’s like, oh, great, I’m healthy.
Speaker 1
·
12:09
Now you want to be healthy in order to be able to, for example, also be a better mother, to better be able to take care of your children, to raise the next generation. Or to better be in service to other people in the form of the work you do in order to protect what’s here as a conservationist, whatever it is that you want to do. Health to me is a cornerstone of that. So that’s why I also integrate that into my work.
Speaker 4
·
12:39
Yeah, nice.
Speaker 3
·
12:41
Yeah. And I’d love to now go a bit more into this whole the role of being a companion and whether that is as a psychedelic facilitator where you’re someone’s companion for their process of transformation and their journey with the plant medicines and then also the journey when somebody is preparing for giving birth and for parenthood, which is the work of a doula. Right. Your companion there. So, yeah, could you just explain a little bit more what this role really entitles? Because I’m not sure if everyone really knows that because again, we’re living in quite a medicalized science based society where giving birth there is a midwife, but the midwife is not necessarily that particular companion.
Speaker 1
·
13:37
Yeah, exactly, thanks for bringing that up because I think a lot of people don’t actually know what a doula is. But in general, in my work, I don’t see myself yet companion, I think is a beautiful word. I don’t see myself as somebody’s guide or somebody who’s here to fix other people’s problems. So also in ceremony, for example, I don’t claim to know the way to be the healer. Exactly. I’m not the healer.
Speaker 1
·
14:04
I’m simply trying to create a space within which the medicine can do its work and within which people can feel so safe that they can actually engage with the medicine in a meaningful way and in a way that is of service to them where they don’t feel so much stuckness and anxiety and maybe also unsafety in their system that they’re not actually able to go into the experience in a way that will benefit them going forward. So that’s the only role that I have. I’m not a healer. I’m not trying to tell people what’s right or what’s wrong, in which directions their path should take them. That’s up to them to figure out. I’m simply a spaceholder, essentially. And this is also exactly what a doula does in pregnancy and birth.
Speaker 1
·
14:58
So a midwife, as you already pointed out, is really a medical professional with a medical background also, who would, for example, in a birthing scenario really evaluate is the birth stagnating. For example, if it’s a home birth, do we have to move to the hospital? Do we have to maybe think about certain interventions, would also, let’s say, listen to the baby’s heartbeat, perform vaginal examinations, all of these things that are very much medical related to the birthing process as such. Whereas a doula is, like I said, more of a spaceholder. The term doula actually comes from a Greek word meaning well. There’s different translations, but loosely translated, a woman who serves or somebody who mothers the mother. So I really see myself again as a companion, as somebody who’s in service, a spaceholder to the woman.
Speaker 1
·
15:56
And I do know a lot about the birthing process. So doulas are educated around childbirth and around just holistic. Also sometimes very hands on things we can do to facilitate birth. So for example, acupressure or massage techniques for pain management or certain techniques we can do to, we can perform to, for example, also support if labor is stagnating or if the baby to some degree might need to be repositioned, if it’s, for example, getting stuck on the pubic bone. So there’s very specific things we do learn, but it’s never with the intention to intervene medically. But the power is really this is what always puzzles me because there is actually a lot of studies out there that show that simply having a birth companion that’s solely focused on the mother and it doesn’t even have to be somebody who is educated in this field.
Speaker 1
·
16:57
Could be a friend, could be, in a way, a random stranger that’s simply focused on caring for the mother as she gives birth. Reduces the amount of interventions used, the amount of pain medication used, shortens labor drastically. So all of this has statistical significance in many studies that have been performed. And it used to be so common. So when you look back to indigenous cultures, but also even just birthing practices, a few decades, maybe a few hundred years ago, most of the time women would give birth amongst other women or at least amongst a few sisters that would hold the space.
Speaker 1
·
17:40
And of course, in a medicalized system that you already mentioned, this has become out of fashion but it’s also sometimes become impossible because we’re trying to limit the amounts of people that during the corona times, for example, sometimes the partner wasn’t even allowed to be there as a woman was giving birth. So there’s less space.
Speaker 3
·
18:05
Extremely practical and hygienic and medicalized, if you look at this shift yeah, but.
Speaker 1
·
18:12
It’S really experiencing a renaissance. So people are starting to understand again that this has value and women are asking for that kind of support again. So I think that’s why also the term doula is it’s not known to everybody again yet, but it’s getting there. More and more women are actually craving for that kind of support.
Speaker 4
·
18:34
Yeah, beautiful that it’s coming back again and that reconnection with each other and community feeling.
Speaker 1
·
18:42
Yeah. Because oftentimes the partner, for example, whether it’s the actual biological father of the child or not but the other labor companion partner of the birthing mother is of course also in their own process a lot of the time of becoming a father, of becoming a second mother to that child, of becoming a caregiver to that child. So that’s sometimes so emotional and so intense that they can’t necessarily always be the rock that the woman needs in that moment. And sometimes also a doula can play a beautiful role there in guiding that partner, that labor companion to actually make a meaningful contribution to the birthing space or just provide some calm.
Speaker 3
·
19:35
Yeah, I can see this the way you’re explaining it. Also, it’s such a transformational process. It is probably one of the most transformational experiences one can have both as a woman or a man who becomes the father. And of course that requires how to say this in English like a container or a bedding where we can say like oh, I feel held and I feel supported. And not just with the practical organizational stuff and feeling safe medically, but also emotionally.
Speaker 1
·
20:13
Exactly. And I think this is really what’s often neglected in the and I’m not saying the way birth is being treated in hospitals is bad, by no means. I mean, there’s also women that rightfully so feel much safer in hospital. And it’s a very personal choice. I mean, there’s no statistical actually there’s some studies that suggest that, for example, home birth is equally safe, if not safer than giving birth in hospital. But yeah, this is something I really want to emphasize. It’s such a personal choice. And birth is really like ceremony. It’s a super intimate space that opens up. And the most important thing for this to go well is for the mother to feel as safe as she possibly can and as supported as she possibly can.
Speaker 1
·
20:57
And I’ve seen many mothers have an extremely intense birth story on paper but they felt super supported throughout the whole process so it doesn’t actually leave them traumatized and vice versa. So some women that had, if you read the birth report, had a beautiful birth with almost no complications, but didn’t feel heard, didn’t feel seen, didn’t feel respected in her choices, for example, had interventions performed that she didn’t agree to or was spoken to in a way that just came in very strongly? Because, like I said, it is like ceremony in a really different state of like, it’s an altered state of consciousness that you go into as the birthing mother, and that needs to be respected, and that space needs to be kept. So in that sense, if that is being provided by whoever, it doesn’t need to be a doula.
Speaker 1
·
21:56
But it can be a doula, can be anybody really. But this is the key component of birth actually being, well, first of all, non traumatizing to the mother most of the time, also successful physically because the more relaxed you are, the more easily the body can actually take over and do its thing.
Speaker 3
·
22:18
Yeah. And what I’m hearing also is a little bit that it is very personal, first of all. So the woman needs to really tune into what she needs, what she feels, what she wants. And then there’s also this preparation part that you can sort of prepare yourself for this mentally and emotionally and make sure that safety is guaranteed and you don’t have to only rely on the medical safety of the hospital and the whole structure that is in place there. Yeah. And what I want to mention here before we actually dive into because I’m really curious and keen to talk also about what role do plant medicines play in this whole process of being pregnant and going towards birth and motherhood as well.
Speaker 3
·
23:12
But before that, I also want to say that a bit of a disclaimer because we know that for a lot of people this is a big topic and it can be a controversial topic because it’s like, yeah, are you going to take plant medicines and are you going to use those? Even though there is no scientific evidence that this can help, that this can be supportive. But we know that all around the world and in many traditions that go thousands of years back, plant medicines have always supported women throughout all of their stages of life. And so we know there is no scientific research done into this because most scientific studies are not done on pregnant women. They feel like that is like unnecessary risk and of course it’s not ethical. It’s not ethical. Yeah. Why would you do that?
Speaker 3
·
24:09
But then on the other hand, there is a long tradition where women are ancestrally supported. They are very much in connection with their ancestors, with nature and with basically the wisdom that comes from nature directly and that is embedded in their lifestyle. So yeah, could you just speak a bit more to your own experiences with plant medicine throughout your time as a pregnant woman and as a mother?
Speaker 1
·
24:45
Yeah, I think you already painted a really good picture here, and I want to stress that point again. That it’s, of course, really everything you do in your life, but especially in pregnancy, as you’re like I mentioned in the beginning, not just responsible for yourself, but responsible especially for that human being that’s growing inside of your body that is fed. Everything that you’re eating, that is in direct connection to everything you’re doing, is 100% influenced by every choice you make. It’s a super personal choice, but this goes for so many things, not just plant medicine. I mean, I for example, have a tub of green juice powder at home and some kale and some spinach and some probiotics and just a bunch of greens in there, some wheatgrass. And it also says don’t use during pregnancy.
Speaker 1
·
25:40
And that’s not necessarily because if you ask any sort of holistic practitioner they’re like, yes, that’s awesome. It has all these different macro and micronutrients and trace minerals and it’s a great nutritional supplement to use during pregnancy. But there’s no scientific evidence. There’s no scientific evidence for or either good or bad.
Speaker 4
·
26:07
So the risks are not researched.
Speaker 1
·
26:10
And I think that’s just important to understand when it comes to these things, that oftentimes things are recommended to not use during pregnancy or to not do during pregnancy simply because we don’t know. And like you said, we don’t have any studies on this and nobody wants to be that person who recommends it and then see something go wrong. And also sometimes when things happen in pregnancy, it’s super difficult to pinpoint what it was. I mean, sometimes it’s obvious, of course, but a lot of the time we just don’t know. It’s such a complex phenomena. So in that sense, there’s also, for example, people who say ice bathing or intense workouts or going into the sauna, all of that is a stressor for the body and shouldn’t be done during pregnancy. But it always depends on what your body is used to as well.
Speaker 1
·
27:05
So if you have a long history of working out, of going into ice baths every single day or regularly working with heat and cold exposure and your body doesn’t actually experience that as a stressor, but as something, nourishing, I personally don’t see a problem. And these are also practices that I’ve done throughout my first pregnancy. Had a super happy, healthy baby who is doing incredibly well, that I’m doing now. I was CrossFitting the day before I gave birth and it felt great on me, on my body. So I just want to sort of give that as a bit of a frame also when it comes to the use of plant medicine, which I would never recommend to anybody. It’s again such a personal choice.
Speaker 1
·
27:58
But like you mentioned, I mean, for example, I spent quite a bit of time in the Amazon rainforest with one of the indigenous tribes there, the Yawanawa also dieted with them for two months a few years back. So it was a diet where we it’s really a spiritual practice. So we had a prolonged period of time where we drank medicine every day. They mainly work with Ayahuasca and rape. So Mapaccio also some kambo and you drink no water, you have very limited amounts of food, no salt, no sexual interactions, no meat. So it’s very limited when it comes to input. You’re consuming and receiving and very intense on the medicine work.
Speaker 3
·
28:45
And this is also that you are more receptive to the medicine and that you become more sensitive to all that is, let’s say all forms of communication that can happen through you.
Speaker 1
·
28:56
Exactly, that’s the idea. It’s really a spiritual study where you try and weaken the body consciously in order to strengthen your spirit. So nothing is really in the way of spirit, of the medicine, of anything that you are. So you’re very conscious in what you’re consuming, what you’re allowing to enter your system. Because of course, also everything we drink, everything we eat is information, everything we consume. So the news we watch or the things we read, the things we listen to, it’s all impacting our system, it’s all impacting the way we will also engage with the world. So it’s very consciously chosen.
Speaker 1
·
29:37
But yeah, through being there and spending this time and being in diet and really diving into that culture and luckily through some previous years spent in Portugal, in Brazil, I speak Portuguese, so I was actually able to really be in closer communication and in closer touch with people from this tribe. And I was especially interested in speaking to the women because there were some pregnant women there and they were also joining ceremony and some of them were also saying that they’re intending to or had been using in this case especially Ayahuasca because this is the medicine sort of like the main medicine they work with in the Amazon. It’s local there that they use this during pregnancy and childbirth in order to strengthen their connection to their own bodies.
Speaker 1
·
30:34
So to be even more attuned to what is it that the body is asking for? To really find alignment between the mind, the body, the spirit and to birth in a better way. So I heard a lot of interesting stories. They also have herbs to, for example, induce labor and they have certain plants that they know will have a pain reducing effect during labor. These people know so much about plants, they know so much about the forest.
Speaker 3
·
31:04
It’S like they live inside a medicine cabinet.
Speaker 1
·
31:06
Exactly. In the Amazon. So it’s not just about plant medicine in the form of psychedelics, but plant medicine really in the form of general, all the plants that are out there to support them, to heal infections, to, for example, help expel the placenta faster, to stop bleeding, all of these things. They have so much knowledge about this. And I personally believe that if, for example, Ayahuasca, and this happens in other traditions as well, right? So if you go to the desert of Central America, they’ll be using peyote and there’s traditions that work with psychedelic mushrooms and there’s so many examples of tribal cultures using psychedelics in pregnancy during.
Speaker 4
·
31:53
Labor, both microdosing and microdosing, or solid.
Speaker 1
·
31:58
Macro dosing and microdosing as well, of course. But I guess if a macro dose is fine, then so will microdose be.
Speaker 4
·
32:10
I could only find some evidence from a presentation once at a Maps conference that pregnant women and children were giving during a ceremony, tiny amounts just to feel connected with the ceremony. But so that was the only evidence I could found. But you now say that it’s also common to use a higher dose during pregnancy.
Speaker 1
·
32:35
I mean, my evidence is anecdotal from having seen it, having spoken to these people. And I mean, there were also children of, I don’t know, from the age of like five, six, they start participating in ceremony and of course they don’t drink the same amounts as adults. But it’s also not a microdose that they’re having.
Speaker 4
·
32:52
Okay? And there are no signs of any cognitive issues or later on or what risk.
Speaker 1
·
33:02
That’s the point that I was trying to get to. Of course, again, this hasn’t been studied scientifically, these people haven’t been followed up with over multiple decades. And of course, also with these kinds of studies, it’s also difficult to say like, okay, what would it have been otherwise? How would this child have developed without the influence of these medicines or of these substances? But what I was trying to get to is these people have so much knowledge about these plants, so much knowledge about the forest, all the different the medicine cabinet that they live in.
Speaker 1
·
33:37
So I believe that if there was truly something to it, if it was truly dangerous to, for example, a pregnant woman, to a birthing mother, to a breastfeeding mother, to a child, they would have discovered that over the last couple of thousands of years and they would be staying the hell away from it.
Speaker 4
·
33:55
Totally agree. Then it wouldn’t be a practice anymore if there was any risk.
Speaker 1
·
34:00
So in that sense, again, I’m not trying to encourage anybody to engage with these substances, especially not if you’re not familiar with them in the first place. But that goes for anything. I would never in pregnancy suddenly try something that I’ve never tried before for the first time. It’s just really not the time. Just wait for nine months and then go about discovering new elements and aspects of life. But if it’s a part of your practice or a part of your life, if it’s really. Been a companion for some time and your body is familiar with it, your mind, your spirit is familiar with it and you feel called to it, then there’s definitely people out there that have a lot of experience with it. And again, with everything, there’s always a risk. Right?
Speaker 4
·
34:51
What would be a specific reason why pregnant women consider microdosing? Can you give an example?
Speaker 1
·
34:59
Yeah, I actually know a lot of mothers sort of in my circles that have been using especially psilocybin microdoses here in the Netherlands, of course, also legal during pregnancy and during breastfeeding. And what a lot of them are reporting is that it helps them maybe also a nice disclaimer. Pregnancy can come and especially the postpartum period can come with a lot of mood swings and anxiety. So I’ve definitely heard quite a few stories of women saying that this has really supported them throughout this journey. I mean, postpartum depression is no joke and it’s also not a secret that a lot of women do actually suffer from that to a greater or lesser degree. But also, pregnancy is an emotional roller coaster. So yeah, I’ve heard many stories of that being a really supportive practice.
Speaker 1
·
35:58
Also when it comes to brain fog, I mean, who are pregnant women are known to not be in their sharpest state of consciousness in that time of their lives. And also there’s a really interesting phenomenon that is, I think, also being studied by the scientific community more and more these days, which has now been labeled matrescence. And it’s basically they call it like a second puberty that the mother undergoes. Because by now we actually do understand that as a woman carries a child there’s not just, of course, enormous changes going on in her physical body around the areas where the child is and certain physiological changes to support the growth of the baby. But there’s also intense neurological change and lasting neurological change in the brain. So certain areas of the brain that shrink, others that grow.
Speaker 1
·
37:03
So it’s a huge process of transformation and lasting transformation, not just for those nine months. And then you kind of go back to normal and go back to who you were before. You don’t get the same body back, but you also don’t get the same brain back.
Speaker 3
·
37:17
In a way, it does make sense just hearing this. It does make sense because you’ll be a mother forever as well.
Speaker 1
·
37:22
It’s really a rite of passage.
Speaker 3
·
37:25
Just assuming that it is a biological you’re biologically being set up for this new stage of your life 100%.
Speaker 1
·
37:32
Yeah. Nature is so intelligent, but we’re just starting to understand that. And I actually know a woman who now coaches women through that whole process of their second puberty, so to say, because a lot of women are really harsh on themselves and they feel like, I’m just turning into this monster and I don’t recognize myself anymore. I’m so emotionally unstable. And they feel like they’re teenagers again, out of touch and maybe out of control of their emotions. But it’s actually such an important transformation that they’re undergoing, just like a teenager going from childhood to puberty to adulthood. So it’s again a huge transformation, huge rite of passage also.
Speaker 1
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38:18
And I’ve also heard many mothers say that in this process, especially if you recognize it as a moment of transformation, that also actually holds a lot of potential for personal growth, for development, that microdosing, which, of course, also increases neuroplasticity and really has a strong impact on the way you feel, on the way you think, on the way you’re able to reflect on your own behavior. All of these things that people note when they are engaging with these substances, that it can be a really supportive practice in that phase. So this is more for women during pregnancy. I’ve also almost touched on postpartum when it comes to anxiety or depression. But I think also what I’ve personally experienced, I don’t know, microdosing around our children sometimes, is that it also brings me a deeper connection to my own inner child.
Speaker 1
·
39:24
And I personally don’t have a huge problem being in the moment and just really enjoying playtime with my children. But sometimes I’ve noticed on days where I microdose maybe for a bit of focus and then later on I spend the afternoon playing with my children, that I notice I’m just much more in the moment and I can much more get in touch with my playful self with my inner child. And it can be so much fun to spend time with children if you actually have the ability to be in the moment and to really engage with their play and to not be in your adult brain and thinking, about your to dos and the things you still need to finish off before you go to bed. And all these plans that you still have. But to really be in the moment.
Speaker 1
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40:08
And I feel like, for example, a micro dose of Psilocybin is a beautiful enhancer of that exact state of being that’s so close to a child’s way of being.
Speaker 2
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40:25
Before we continue with the rest of the interview, I’d like to inform you one of the programs we run at Microdosing Institute that might interest you. Our six week microdosing intensive is the most holistic and powerful option we offer for microdosing support. 95% of participants indicate that they had a positive personal transformation in just six weeks. Additionally, many participants gained lifelong community connections and valuable tools to continue exploring and integrating insights even after the program has ended. One participant noted the arc of the program worked well and guided us through our experiences. It was very clear from everyone sharing that we had all been through a profound process together that touched each of us deeply. To start your journey of personal transformation with microdosing, please visit the link in our show notes or head to our website.
Speaker 4
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41:21
When I kept a journal in my first microdosing journey. I read it back and then saw the red thread, like, hey, I feel more empathy towards my children. I feel more in their world. Instead of being the policeman saying that they couldn’t do this and that. So I really had that realization. Okay. And then, because I was more on their level and being in that timeless zone together with them, it helped me really to be connected more with them and then also have mutual respect and they listened better also. So that, for me, was an eye opener the first time, 100%.
Speaker 1
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42:01
Yeah. It takes out that hierarchical structure to some degree, sometimes just builds up naturally.
Speaker 4
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42:08
Touching your inner child also.
Speaker 1
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42:10
So yeah, I think also, in that sense, it can be a really beautiful practice.
Speaker 3
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42:14
Yeah. There’s so many things here. I just want to sort of reiterate it. You mentioned this whole thing of dealing with the change as a pregnant woman or a mother, dealing with all the changes and all the mood swings and all the sort of emotionally feeling out of control so that it can help with that. And it can also I can imagine that you can also have sort of this sense of, oh, but I want to be responsible towards others as well. I still want to take ownership of my emotions. But because this is all new and it’s a new phase and it’s a transition, you don’t always know what’s going on and you don’t have the control in the end. Right.
Speaker 3
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42:58
So what I’m understanding here is that it also gives more self acceptance and just more peace of mind throughout the whole process.
Speaker 1
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43:08
Exactly.
Speaker 3
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43:08
And allowing yourself to be whatever you are and whatever you’re transforming into. So sort of embracing these different selves and these new selves that you’re actually encountering the self of a mom and the self of a caretaker and being in service of your child and also being at the same level of your child and so your own inner child. Yeah, this is really beautiful to hear.
Speaker 1
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43:35
Yeah. Beautifully put. Because I think also, of course, the goal is not to always stay in control of your emotions. That’s not what I was trying to say. But to really open up your own awareness to everything that’s there. And I think this is what plant medicine gives us the ability to do a lot of the time to really, with a very conscious mind, also with a very open heart, look at what is and then see how we can integrate and accept that into our being, into our way of living. And in that sense, especially in moments when you’re stepping into a next phase or a next era in your life or some big changes are happening on the outside, but also on the inside, this can be a beautiful tool to be working with.
Speaker 1
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44:24
Not in the sense that it necessarily helps you to get back to control and come back to normal, but to really, like you said, explore what’s there and work with this consciously. Like I mentioned before, I think such a beautiful invitation. Pregnancy and childbirth and parenthood. It’s a spiritual practice, I think you mentioned it at the beginning. Hein, but it’s also such a beautiful invitation to really step up and to really look at yourself very honestly. And many people also say as you parent your children, you’re also parenting yourself. And I found that to be very true. And I think the more you can in that process be connected to yourself, to your subconscious, to your higher self, whatever you might want to call it, and the more helpers you can sort of have on your team to get there, the better.
Speaker 3
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45:21
But it also sounds like quite the task, right? Because I’m imagining you’re trying to actually be the parent that you wish you’d had or you try to be the best parent you can, but at the same time, there is so much going on and I can imagine it’s also just really hard. So many challenges, so many triggers. I was just on the train and there were two small babies there actually, and they were both crying and I could see like, oh wow, I’m really sensitive to this kind of sound. And I just pictured for a moment being a parent and having to be with these cries for much longer every day, almost every day, right?
Speaker 3
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46:07
So I can also imagine there are lots of parents who say, okay, let me just try micro dosing and see if this helps me actually be more resilient or be more yeah, I don’t know, let me just see if this supports me because actually I find the parenting really hard. What would you say to someone like that? This is just hypothetical.
Speaker 1
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46:33
Yeah, of course. These baby cries, they’re perfectly engineered to trigger our nervous system to not leave a baby crying. Babies are doing well if they’re crying in a way that triggers you, that’s their way of surviving. And I could definitely imagine that for some people, this might be a good tool to sort of stay in your center and to self regulate and to really be more in the moment, like we said, to be like, okay, this is what’s here now. I’m just going to do my best. And I think, again there it’s very personal. Other people might feel much better served by other things by, I don’t know, finding five minutes to meditate or finding a bit of time in the morning to practice conscious movement or breath work or whatever it is.
Speaker 1
·
47:29
I mean, this is also what I always emphasize in my work, that this path of plant medicine, or microdosing, for example, in this particular case, it’s not for everybody in the sense that everyone’s, of course, free to try it. But I don’t think it’s necessarily serving for everybody to embrace that path. And I feel like it’s one of the many modalities out there or pathways to get to a certain state of consciousness or a certain awareness, a certain ability to transform that people are striving for, but it’s not necessarily the one. And oftentimes people that find such a practice and really feel like it’s for them, they’re like, oh, this is the thing, and I want everyone to try it, and my mom should do it, and my dog should do it, and my grandpa.
Speaker 1
·
48:21
And they have this enthusiasm, which is, of course, admirable. But at the same time, I’ve come to a place where I just feel like everyone again has to tune in with themselves and feel very clearly what is for me. And for some people, for example, meditating or conscious movement, breath work, certain nutritional choices, whatever it is, there’s so much out there. Music might get them to the exact same place, but in a way that feels much more serving to them as an individual.
Speaker 4
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48:57
Also, because they chose that path. So yeah, I always say never convince people to do micro dosing or using psychedelics if it’s on their path and their interest, that’s a different story. But then they choose it themselves and then they walk that path.
Speaker 1
·
49:14
Exactly.
Speaker 4
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49:14
I believe that other people to use it or you also take a little bit of that responsibility.
Speaker 1
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49:22
Also with plant medicine, once you’re in it with psychedelics, right? Like if you try some breath work and then you find it’s too intense or it brings you to a place that and I’m not trying to downplay breath work. I’ve seen intense things happen in breath work sessions and intense transformations, but also altered states of consciousness reached and that definitely also needs people to hold the space very safely and very mindfully. But at least once you come back to your normal breathing it doesn’t usually take too long before you also come back to your quote unquote regular state of consciousness.
Speaker 1
·
49:58
Whereas with not so much with micro dosing necessarily because of course also the point is to have it be subperceptual at least to some degree where you can benefit from the effects but in a way where you can still go about your day to day life. But yeah, once you’re taking psychedelics in a mini or in a macro dose, you’re just in it and you’re just going to have to sit it out and there’s no easy way out. So I think in that sense it’s also somewhat different which is why I feel much more strongly that people really need to feel that own drive, that own call to try it out and shouldn’t necessarily listen to a friend or listen to a relative that think it’s for them.
Speaker 3
·
50:41
Yeah, for sure, yeah. What I would like to come back to is also you mentioned earlier, I don’t know exactly, it was somewhere in this context, like you parent yourself, like you become your own mother in a way. And that’s also, I think, about these kind of responsibilities that only you can know if it really feels right to you and if it’s something that you want to try or get into or which other modalities might feel more supportive and yeah, this also is kind of taking that responsibility also and really applying it.
Speaker 1
·
51:19
Yeah, absolutely. And I think especially I mean, always in life, but I think especially if we transition into that role of more maturity. I think in the past when we had a conversation, were talking about female archetypes specifically applies to any sort of archetypes or any sort of developmental stages of maturity. But as you move into a stage of your life where you’re not just responsible for yourself, where you’re not just sort of naively exploring life and seeing what’s here and what’s there, of course you’re going to have to make choices that are coming from a much more conscious place of knowing yourself, but also knowing the effect or the consequences that it’s going to have as a result on your surroundings. So that might be on your children, on your family, but also on pretty much anybody you engage with.
Speaker 1
·
52:17
So the better you can understand and tune in with yourself and really feel like, oh, is something for me and am I really feeling that call sort of out of my own motivation? Or is it something that I’m doing because it’s now popular? Is it because everyone’s talking about it because I’m experienced some sort of FOMO of not having tried it? I think it’s really asking for a lot more reflection and inner I don’t want to call it inner wisdom, but like inner sort of alignment to feel, hey, is this something that as I’m parenting myself, is this something that’s going to benefit me?
Speaker 1
·
53:00
Because that’s of course, as a parent, the main question that you’re always asking, that’s also the conundrum of parenting because you always want the best for your kids, but at the same time you know that you’re always going to be a suboptimal parent. Like you’re never going to be just the way were traumatized by our parents and wish that they would have been different. Our children are going to wish that we would have been different.
Speaker 3
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53:21
Transfer things onto your kids no matter what.
Speaker 1
·
53:24
Exactly. Sometimes consciously, sometimes it even happens in the moment where you do something you’re like, I should have done this differently and I can already now, seconds later, kind of regret my move and try.
Speaker 4
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53:38
And make up the blueprint for something traumatically.
Speaker 1
·
53:41
Exactly. And that’s just a given. So I think that’s also something you have to accept as a parent, that you’re always going to make some optimal choices here and there. And in some ways you might be the most amazing parent. And our kids will love us later down the line and say, I’m so grateful my parents enabled me to become that or to think this way or to explore this way of being this way of living and other ways in which they might feel like we failed them. And that’s okay. And I think that’s also where the spiritual practice comes in again, to simply being to try your best, but to also being okay with what is yeah.
Speaker 4
·
54:20
I had this morning with my daughter. She made a stain on the couch and I was a little bit angry, and then she said, sorry and said, oh, no, I’m sorry, because I have also my moments when I’m not at my best or react in a different way. So I think, to be honest about that’s really helped me and her to see it in a realistic perspective and that being vulnerable in that sense.
Speaker 1
·
54:51
Instead of being human about it.
Speaker 4
·
54:52
Yeah, being human about it.
Speaker 3
·
54:54
Yeah. And I feel also this is something where micro dosing is particularly helpful. It’s been helpful for me also to really be more conscious of my reactions, but also of the underlying motive of those reactions. Oh, this was going on. Oh, I was triggered by that person and then owning them and then knowing that at the same time, it’s okay. So you can immediately forgive yourself, be grateful for this opportunity that it’s learning. And yeah, I feel like also this whole trajectory as a human, but then for sure, when you’re a parent as well, you’re just stacking all these learnings and it is a spiritual trajectory.
Speaker 3
·
55:40
And, yeah, I think this is where plant medicines and microdosing, for instance, in a very gentle way, can also just help us bring a little bit more awareness to that and a bit more acceptance and allowance and self compassion and we can just see things in a light that is, I think, more optimal for that whole learning process, actually.
Speaker 1
·
56:07
Yeah, because I feel like plant medicines really have that ability to show us our divinity, but to also show us our raw humanness and find acceptance in that. So, yeah, I believe in that sense, also a really beautiful practice to combine with parenting, specifically, but also just life as a human being in whichever role you might have towards other people, because it’s just in our role as parents, we have influence on the development of others. Every way in which we interact with other people and every way we engage with the people around us, we leave an imprint. And of course, the imprint is bigger on our children because they spend a lot of time with us, especially in their first few years of their lives, where they’re basically like sponges. They just absorb everything.
Speaker 1
·
57:04
There’s so much conditioning happening, so many belief systems implanted into their beings.
Speaker 3
·
57:15
Isn’t it like you have a walking mirror around you all the time and.
Speaker 1
·
57:19
It’S beautiful and it’s confronting they mimic.
Speaker 4
·
57:22
Me and they imitate me because for.
Speaker 1
·
57:24
Example, if I’m not in control of my anger, for example, because we brought up anger earlier, then what I’m teaching them is to engage with their own anger. And sometimes this can be not necessarily a negative thing to also teach children how to express emotion and to not swallow them. But at the same time, of course, it’s also my role as a parent, ideally to role model. And I think this is where parenting really becomes interesting because you can teach all you want, right? You can say all you want. What really matters is how you role model. So if I tell my children to not get upset, to not get angry, but then I can’t control my own anger, it’s not going to do anything because the role modeling is really how the lessons come in. So there again. Yeah.
Speaker 1
·
58:12
I believe, for example, practices such as microdosing can really also make us aware of our own limitations or our own ways of being that we consider to be suboptimal, that we would like to work on, that we would like to change, and to always have moments of self reflection, moments of reconsidering how we can act in a different way so that we can better role models.
Speaker 3
·
58:40
Yeah, what comes up for me is that this is also the intentionality that becomes very important because you’re becoming immediately aware of when things were unintentional and then you can bring that intention in and say, okay, this is actually how the kind of role model I want to be, et cetera. Yeah.
Speaker 1
·
58:57
I have one more question for you.
Speaker 3
·
58:59
And I think this is going to be sort of a closing question. Maybe you spoke also about giving birth as the ultimate ceremony and basically motherhood as this whole process of transformation, this huge process of transformation. And as we started off, were saying that there’s still in general kind of a lack of support, emotional support, spiritual support, a lack of community that really holds women through that experience. So in an ideal world, what do you think is important in terms of what set and setting should we be creating in a society for women to be more supported in this experience?
Speaker 1
·
59:44
Yeah, it’s a beautiful question. I think what’s first of all important is for us as women, as birthing mothers that have kind of been led in on this age old secret that’s connecting us across time and space to really speak honestly about it. Because I think that’s the first step. And of course there’s many stories, good and bad, but my personal experience was also that I felt like a lot of mothers that had women that had become mothers before me were almost sugar coating the experience so that I wouldn’t be afraid or really painting it in very dark colors because of their own negative experience. And I believe the more we’re able to share honestly and openly and in a raw but also loving way and really also talk about the uncomfortable topics around pregnancy around because I feel like there’s two camps.
There’s the ones that kind of pretend like it’s being on cloud nine for nine months and it’s all rosy. And then there’s the ones that it’s the most awful thing and it’s such a burden to women to have to give birth and to be mothers and to have to carry children. And I feel like it’s somewhere in the middle. It’s a beautiful gift, it brings so many gifts, but it comes with challenges. And I think the more open we’re able to and the more vulnerable we’re able to make these conversations. Hey, like look, this is how it’s been for me it’s been wonderful, but it’s also been really challenging and these are the tools that have helped me. It’s just like a buffet, right?
Like if all of us open up and say like, hey, these are the tools that helped me and then these are the tools that helped you, then I believe women will go so new mothers will go into this in a much more conscious and prepared way. And if we’re also able to let go of our own resentment around it. I feel like a lot of, especially mothers that have had negative experiences almost sometimes don’t feel comfortable with, almost feel jealous of somebody else having a positive experience. And I feel like that feeling of sisterhood and of being in this together to me is so important.
And this is also where, again, this compassionate role of a doula a Birthkeeper comes in again, right, where somebody is really coming in as a companion for women in this period of pregnancy saying like, hey, these are some best practices you might want to be looking at. These are some things that have generally helped a lot of women. These are things you can because of course it’s wildly different every time, just like ceremony, but there’s still so many things you can do to actually prepare yourself or to integrate the experience, even though that every single individual ever giving birth will have a completely different experience. Just like every individual ever going into ceremony, working with psychedelics will have a completely individual experience. There’s still some common factors before and after to prepare, to integrate that we can spread.
And I think both in the world of psychedelics and in the world of childbirth, this is coming back to surface again and I think that’s beautiful.
That’s why it’s so valuable that you speak so openly about this because we get this question so many times like can I microdose during pregnancy? What’s the do’s and the don’ts? And yeah, people are busy with thinking about it, having concerns and those kind of things. So this is very valuable and I.
Think this is where we come back to again, listening to your own intuition, right? Not always looking. And of course, it’s great to be informed about it and to look at the studies that are out there. I think you guys also have a beautiful article on microdosing during breastfeeding, for example, on your website, Microdosing Institute. And we live in an age of information, right? So to get all of the information you possibly can, but to also not lose track of your own intuition or your own sense of like, okay, does that feel aligned with me or not? Just because many other mothers are doing it or not doing it doesn’t mean that I have to do it or not do it. Also, me recommending or not recommending, it shouldn’t be the basis.
No, the word recommendation is really not in here. But what I’m hearing, what you were saying just now also is about every mother is different, every pregnancy is different, every ceremony is different. And we need to be validating. All the experiences, I think when we start validating that every experience is real and we can acknowledge it from there, everybody can learn, support, care, and just have that experience. Maybe right now, if people still feel there is a bit of judgment or there is some kind of pressure to have a beautiful pregnancy and a wonderful motherhood on cloud nine, and of course, nothing here can be forced. I just wanted to mention that, and I think that’s very much in alignment with, in general, the experiences that people are having with their plant medicine ceremonies and their own inner work.
And I think, just as a final comment, I think judgment is so strong in the whole field around parenthood pregnancy, birth motherhood in life in general, but especially there, because everyone will have an opinion on how you need to behave during pregnancy, how you should be giving birth, how you should be raising your children. And I mean, for example, when it comes to micro dosing, there’s actually very little evidence or there’s almost no toxicity to these substances, right? Like, much less than, for example, certain medication that antidepressants yeah. Prescribed and given to pregnant women on a regular basis, that’s normalized, right? Or, for example, drinking around your children. So drinking alcohol I grew up in a family where having alcohol was 100% normal, if not even celebrated.
And the state of consciousness that puts you in I don’t necessarily think is superior to the state of consciousness that you quite the contrary, if you ask me personally. That you’re transported into when you microdose and it’s actually much more like even when you drink coffee, it’s actually much more of a psychoactive substance or much more of a sort of consciousness shift to taking a little microdose, to having, whatever, two, three cups of coffee in the morning. So I think also sometimes when people judge, they judge based on a lot of ignorance and a lot of lack of knowledge about these substances, like, oh, this is drugs, this. Is dangerous. This makes you see things that are not there and turns you into a psychotic person when actually there’s so much more nuance to this.
And a lot of the things that are societally accepted actually can have pretty damaging effects that we as a society often tend to ignore simply because it’s been around for so long and it’s just part of our culture. And then other cultures have the exact opposite, right? Like where these medicines, for example, in the jungle, everyone is a part of these ceremonies. Children, pregnant women, old people. It’s just a way that connects people, like a way of being that’s so deeply ingrained in their culture that they wouldn’t even consider having this be portrayed as something harmful.
Yeah, exactly. This is also a conversation we keep having so often, but the distinction between a drug and a psychedelic or a medicine or plant medicine, or a support or tool like you can put it in a box and it depends on all the information and stories that you’ve been given that are imprinted on you from as our culture has been doing. And then it takes some time and it takes a lot of research and conversations and things like we’re doing here to actually find that nuance and clarify what it’s actually about. So yeah, I’m really happy that we’re having this conversation right now as well. I hope this contributes also to giving more nuance to this whole theme and particularly in relation to motherhood. And thank you for bringing up that article.
We have indeed an article on our website which is about microdosing and breastfeeding. It also talks a little bit about pregnancy and it also links to two other resources that I want to mention. One is some really good information on psychedelics today. They also did quite a lot of research on this topic and bring that all together. So for people who want to know the more scientific part of this story and how does it work on the body and if I want to microdose but I don’t want my breast milk or my child to be affected, then how should I do it? There are some pointers there and there’s also some citizen science research happening right now which is basically a collection of stories.
Michaela de la Maiko and James Fademan are kind of teaming up and they are basically trying to collect a thousand stories about mushrooms and motherhood, so very much in particular mushrooms that we know no harm is being, there’s no evidence that it’s harmful. But they want the real stories from real people like yourself, like so many others who can add more nuance and add more color and just add more clarity to what it’s doing.
So if you’re listening and you have experience, please share it notes or send us an email because your experience can be valuable for someone else.
I think this is a way also to sort of circumvent. That idea of studying these substances in pregnancy is unethical because if women are using it anyway and are willing to share their stories, then of course this is far from, let’s say, clinical trial where the conditions are monitored very closely and kept very standardized. But yeah, like we already said in the beginning, if these indigenous tribes have been working with these medicines for thousands of years and they’re still doing it, there’s lots of anecdotal evidence that this is not just not harmful. But also in many ways, very why would we not also take that as a piece of evidence that there might be something to it?
Yeah, and people like Jim Fetterman and also Amanda Fielding, she’s one of the pioneers, one of the biggest names in psychedelic research. She is also advocating for doing more research on this and she said we could do animal models like there’s so many scientific methods besides giving it to pregnant women that we can use. So hopefully that’s going to happen. Yeah. Okay. Very last thing Anna, where can people connect with you? Where can they hear more from you if they would like to either work with you or just keep having conversations?
Yes. So the easiest way to reach out is, I believe via Instagram. So on my account, you guys will probably also put it in the show notes. Anna Katerin Hail, which is just my name and I share a mix of personal but also professional elements there bit of a content mix and yeah, it’s easy to reach out to me there. I have a website, Annahel.com, which also features my offer. So ceremonial work, doula work, breath work and so on and so forth. And I’ve also recently launched my podcast which hein is also a guest on. So we had a beautiful conversation about microdosing psychedelics. Surprise, surprise. It’s called Bliss and Butter and yeah, it’s more of a passion project. It’s not necessarily sort of a part of the, let’s say, work I do for a living.
It’s really just inspirational conversations with incredibly interesting humans that I have in my network and that I’m so blessed to have the chance to speak to. So I just wanted to share those with the world.
Yeah, well, passion projects are the best.
Usually the best, right?
Yeah, totally. We are putting all this information with the show notes and the captions and yeah. I just want to say thank you for coming on and for sharing your story with us.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you so much for having me and also showing interest in this topic which is, I think, not as niche anymore as some people might believe. True. I really hope this conversation inspires some mothers to be some parents, but also maybe some people that are currently judging to at least keep an open mind. Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you.
Exactly. I invite all our listeners to share in the comments what you find interesting or inspiring about this conversation. And yeah, don’t forget to share it with others who might want to learn more. Thank you for listening and thank you for exploring Microdosing and Motherhood with us.
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